Many thanks for the hundreds of emails to
feedback that are not published below. This page is for your input, your thoughts,
ideas, and contributions.
All views considered and answered.
Thank you for the following feedback;
Please Note there are lots of feedback I have not been able to
21 Dec 2015
Please contact me direct-
bill at denheldid dot com
Peter Newman, 27
March 2015, Another Kelly Cave ?
I refer to our discussions last year about the "Kelly cave"
mentioned in James Winter's letter to the authorities. As you know
I was looking into the whereabouts of this cave last year - being
somewhat intrigued that, to my knowledge, no-one with an interest in
the Kelly story had made any significant attempt to find that cave
over the past 135 years. In this regard, whilst the Winter letter
has been mentioned in McMenomy's book and other books on Kelly, as
well as your Two Huts story7 , no one to my knowledge had made any
kind of a concerted effort to try to find this cave.
As you would know from those maps I sent you last year, it was
relatively easy (thanks in part to Google Earth) to narrow the
search area down to the Wild Dog Rocks area in the Strathbogie
Ranges. Unfortunately though, someone else "found" the cave before
I had a chance to go and look for it myself. It was found by
Stephen Hanbury who has put together a very interesting fact sheet
about his find. ( which you have featured on your webpage) Obviously
the cave was known about by others given there is a metal disk at
the entrance, but Stephen is the one who went looking for it
specifically in connection with the Kelly story, and has therefore
linked its significance to the Kelly story.
Which brings me to
the other "Kelly cave" story that you told me about several years
ago and I wonder if you or your readers are able to help me with
this. I recall you made mention of a mine or cave near Mt Samaria
that was said to be associated with the Kelly Gang. I remember you
telling me the fact this cave/mine had been visited earlier by some
Kelly researchers who had made a video of the mine/cave which was
screened at the Beechworth Museum . The mine/cave was supposed to
have had tools of miners and stuff in it. I remembered also some
talk about the possibility of a body of a policeman being in a mine
shaft, although that seems to me to be somewhat implausible.
However I have heard nothing more about this mine/cave discovery!
My understanding was that the mine was near a later timber loggers
Tramline track in the Blue Ranges near Mt Samaria. Last weekend I
found a tramline track and walked the length from west to east some
4 km up to the point where the tramline falls away more steeply at
its eastern end towards the former mill site. I found the
topography along the section of the tramline track that I walked to
be fairly flat and unlikely to be where a cave or mine would be
found. However the eastern end of the tramway where it drops away
to the former mill site is adjacent to a gully where I think it is
more likely that a cave or mine might be found. Unfortunately I did
not have the time to explore this section of the track. Because of
the ruggedness of the terrain and the tree cover, I think a further
search for this cave / mine would be futile without more specific
So I send this post in the hope that you or one of your readers
might have some further information that would help narrow down the
I am impressed with your persistence but suppose for a keen bush
walker following history this is what it takes. Those are rugged
places and to read how you found and followed the logging tramway
track for 4Km is deserving much support.
I will try contacting the person who told me about this cave site,
but doubt anymore information be forthcoming, but you never know?
I need to mention after receiving and reviewing the exact location
of the cave co ordinates provided by Stephen on Google Earth, I
wonder if it would have been practical for the Kellys to hide there
without a fresh water supply on hand?
If any readers
can add information and wish to join Peter in his quest to find this
other mine/cave, please email
and I will put you in touch.
Maxine Stephenson 16 Mar 2015
John 'Jack' Lloyd
Kia ora Bill, from New Zealand, I was just reading some email
feedback on your webpage (see 23 July 2014 this page) about a member
of John 'Jack' Lloyd's family who went to New Zealand. I am not to
comfortable about using these running websites (I don't do Facebook
etc) so thought I would communicate directly with you. I can conform
that Charles Mansfield Lloyd, son of John Jack and Catherine Quinn
also came to NZ to work in the Waihi gold mines. He married
Priscilla Ellis from Moonta mines (not MRS Prscilla Ellis as is
incorrectly recorded in some books) in Broken Hill in 1891. He was
in Waihi until his death in 1940 and was my grandfather. I know
there was trouble about his marrying out of the Catholic Church. I
have a complete family record of his children in New Zealand if that
is any use to you at all for others making inquiries. My mum, Dulcie
Lloyd, was one of three girls and there were six sons. All are
deceased, but some of my generation are now living in Australia.
Anyway, I'm happy to send on details if that would be useful.
My grandfather's details: Charles
Mansfield Lloyd 1870-1940 B: 25 September 1870 Mansfield Victoria.
D: 17 June 1940 Waihi. M: 17 March 1891 Primitive Methodist Church
Parsonage, Broken Hill, NSW Immigration 1895.
Best, Maxine Stephenson
January 2015 About
35 years ago
Bill, The work
that you have done is excellent.
I come from Wollongong and am 70 years of age. About 35 years ago I
took my wife and children on a holiday - a Ned Kelly tour starting
from NE Victoria, visiting a lot of places,and finishing at
Melbourne jail. It is a pity that we did not have the information
that is now available from both yourself, and the book ' Ned Kelly,
a short life ' by Ian Jones. I find the whole thing fascinating.
Thank you for putting this work on the Internet.
Regards, Ray Condon
Thanks Ray, a passion for history is all it
takes and shows anyone can contribute.
Eddelbuttel, 30 December 2014 Stringybark Creek
I've now had a chance to have a closer look at your project. I can't
understand for the life of me why you are not a household name, and
why your research is not more readily known. Why you haven't snapped
up a book deal is beyond me! A broad view of your website last night
didn't direct me to the 39 pages of research, that are quite simply
nothing short of riveting and highly persuasive. Bravo, my man!
Where did this passion come from?
Mark, Thank you for the kind words, first you
have to fail English and dislike reading. Then become interested in
prospecting, then learn geology, colonial history,
mapping, photography, archaeology, anthropology and lastly, correct
history where you see it's recorded incorrectly, that's all.
Sharon Hollingsworth, 21 Aug 2014
Police historical record re Fitzpatrick
Dear Bill &
Stuart, in regards to the inquiry regarding the Benalla Police
Occurrences Book, I have found references to the Greta and Glenrowan
and Mansfield Occurrence Books being used by authors to research
their books, but nothing about one for Benalla.
out there knows something or maybe it is just "lost" like so many
other things. Makes you wonder where all of this "lost" stuff is,
especially the prison records for Joe Byrne and his alleged diary
(the latter, to me, is more of a Holy Grail than the Declaration of
NE Victoria document is to others)! Cheers, Sharon Hollingsworth
Thank you Sharon
|Stuart Dawson 19 Aug 2014
Police historical record re Fitzpatrick
I am trying to locate a record book known as an "Occurrence Book" or
"Diary of Duty and Occurrences", that would have been kept by the
Benalla Police covering the period including April 1878, when
Fitzpatrick went to the Kelly's house to try and arrest Dan Kelly,
sparking the Kelly outbreak. The Public Records Office do not have
it, and neither do the Police Museum. The Police Museum suggested I
should try the district Historical Societies, and I have contacted
Wangaratta and Benalla with no success to date.
I therefore thought
I might try you, as you may have come across this book or a
reference to it in your Kelly research. Best regards, Stuart
I will ask Sharon in the USA, Sharon, have you
any knowledge of this?
Robert McGarrigle 23 July 2014 Jack Lloyd Jnr
Bobbi is correct in saying that one of the Lloyds moved to NZ. The
John James (Jack) Lloyd that moved to NZ was born on the 26th
January 1880 and is the younger brother of my grt granny Winifred.
This John Lloyd is not the John Lloyd charged with willful damage
it was his older brother of the same name. The older brother is the
John that was killed by his cousin Thomas Peter Lloyd at O'Brien's
hotel in 1879.The younger John Lloyd who moved to NZ died in
Christchurch. If Chris is a descendant of this John Lloyd we would
be cousins. You could also mention to Chris that there were 3
children of Tom Lloyd and Bridget Murphy Winifred, John (known as
Jack Snr) and Thomas. (my gg grandfather) This is the Jack Lloyd
that dobbed in Harry Power and was killed at Winton in a horse fall.
Thanks for the explanation Robert
Correction made to John James (Jack) Jones -changed to
John James (jack) Lloyd
Chris Jones ( Bobbi) 20 July 2014 Jack Lloyd Jnr
Hello, In reading your information
on Ned Kelly and letter written to you, I noticed a letter from Faye
Harkess, my maiden name is Harkerss. My father (mothers name was
Elizabeth Lloyd) told me when his side came from Ireland they
changed the spelling.
He also told me we
are related to a Jack Lloyd/Thomas Lloyd who was part of the Kelly
gang, with relatives in the Quinn family. I'm not 100% of the
information, that one of the Lloyd went to New Zealand and had a
family. This particular Lloyd had a hand in betraying the Kelly
gang. I would like to trace this family tree but can not find a
great deal of information on the Lloyds. Is there any
information/books you can suggest to help?.
Jack Jnr Lloyd was
charged with willful damage in 19.10.1877? Which is all I have in
regard to this family. Kind regards Bobbi Jones Australia.
Hi Bobbi, I will forward your enquiry to
several Lloyd descendants so they can communicate to you directly.
As far as Kelly books go, trust you have Ian Jones's 'Ned Kelly a
Short Life', Ian McFarlane's 'The Kelly Gang Unmasked' and latest
Peter Fitzsimons 'Ned Kelly' , the later which has 13 references to
Jack Lloyd Jnr, but suggest you reference all three books. Bill
David Meneghini, 13 May 2014, Two Huts
Dear Bill, My name is David and thought
I would email you to congratulate you on a wonderful and very in
depth/informative website you have created. Your life long passion
on this subject, & putting pen to paper is surely being appreciated
and as you may have gathered, I too, am and have been a Kelly
enthusiast for many years. I do remember eagerly reading your
material years ago and now with my recently renewed interest will
retrace the towns in the next couple of weeks. Having never stopped
by Avenel, Greta and the Benalla Museum to see Ned’s sash, I am
looking forward to this little adventure with my wife for a few
days. Living in Wattle Glen, not that far from Beveridge, there is
no excuse not to go and I will also be attending the Kelly weekend
in August. I will continue reading your material with such interest
and envy you in your Kelly journey and expedition. Kind Regards,
Thanks David, do go by Stringy Bark Creek and
follow the sign posted site, but the real site is on the other side
of the creek ( road side = west side of creek) diagonally south west
to where the two fireplaces are, that's where the police camped and
Const Lonigan and Scanlan were shot dead, and Sergeant Kennedy
wounded. It is a sad place. Please see my document at ironicon with
maps how to find the site. The fireplace rock piles are covered with
mesh. One day this area will become the official site dedicated to
the police but news travels slow up these parts. Please do not get
confused with two huts at Kellys creek, we are talking about SBC
where the police camped, not where the Kellys camped. Bill
Many thanks to all those feedbacks in the meantime not posted here.
Bronwyn Stanley. 28 April 2013, John Martin of
Hi Bill, I have recently been
researching my ancestor John Martin who lived at Dueran in the
1880,s he arrived in 1841 and worked at Wappan Station (he was
friends with John Bon) before owning Howqua Station than moving out
to Dueran, I recently read an article that mentions him living at
Bridge Creek, I then found your map on your website. I was wondering
if you had any further information on the property he owned about
there. I have found a couple of stories about him in the Mansfield
Courier, but not much. He died in 1893 and is buried in an unmarked
grave at Mansfield Cemetary next to his wife Anne.
Hello Bronwyn, I have a collection of the Charlie Engelke photos one
of which of a 'Jack Martin' taken during a fancy dress event either
at Tolmie or Toombulup circa 1930? Do you know this Jack Martin, is
|John Lyster, 22 March 2013
Police Family History Benalla
Bill, my name is John Lyster from Adelaide. I have been recently
researching my family history in Victoria and even pursuing our
family legend, spruiked mainly by a now deceased auntie, that a
family member, who was an officer in the Victoria Police, had
dealings with Ned Kelly. I have studied up as much as I can and have
come as close as finding out from the Benalla Historical Society and
the Victoria Police Museum that my relative, a Senior Constable
Charles Byrne, worked at the Benalla Police Station in the period
1868-72. Indeed I have documents that inform me that he received a
reward for making two arrests while stationed there, and which he
shared with a Sergeant Whelan, in 1869 and 1870.
Very interestingly, I have read the Wiki bio on Ned
Kelly and indeed such a Sergeant Whelan of Benalla is referenced as
having been among the very first police officers to detain a young
Ned Kelly in 1869. This is getting very close to my family
connection and I would like to follow this lead up as much as I can
if I may. I am a great grandson of SC Charles Byrne of Victoria
Police. I checked out the wiki citation and it looks like it was
inserted by a Mr. Ian Jones, who looks to be a person who has spent
much time in studying the Ned Kelly story.
I would very much
appreciate the opportunity to follow up more about this period of
the Ned Kelly story if I can. Would you be able to assist me with
any information regarding the above issue or in making contact with
Mr Jones please? Regards,John Lyster (Adelaide)
Regarding 1869, this means Ned was only 14 years old.
Can you provide the Wiki Citation .Bill
Ronelle Ashford Sat 19/01/2013 Ned Kelly Song
I am searching for information regarding a song my father, Ron
Bywater, wrote about Ned Kelly. Dad wrote the lyrics and the other
gentleman “Bill” wrote the music. I believe there may have been a
mention of this on your feedback site some time ago but I have
perused the feedback and not been able to find it. Would you have
any information as I would really like to get in touch with the
person who came across the “manuscript” her grandmothers brother
wrote with my father. Any help would be much appreciated.
Kind Regards Ronelle Ashford
Ronelle, I cannot remember this, so perhaps it was mentioned on
Ironoutlaw feedback? Perhaps Sharon Hollingsworth may be able to
help as well?
Message from Sharon, 15 Feb -
regarding the singer/songwriter Ron Bywater who had written a song
about Ned Kelly ? I have looked online and in old papers and
databases and I cannot find anything about that particular song.
Hopefully, someone more familiar with vintage Australian country and
folk singers can help shed light on this. Cheers, Sharon
Clare Ventura, 28 August 2012 Comments and suggestions on
Hi, Great site you have there!
I'm a single mom working two jobs and I've been teaching my little
boy about the Australian bushrangers. He became very interested when
he saw them on TV and he said that he wants to be like them when he
grows up. Adorable, isn't he? I don't really have time to look for
books about the bushrangers so I went online instead. I've been
scouring the internet looking for good sites about it when I came
upon your website
http://www.ironicon.com.au and I'm so glad that I did. You've
got really great content and resources that I could share with my
boy about the bushrangers with ease. It's also very easy to navigate
around. Great job! Since your site has been very helpful to
me, I want to contribute a little something. I found a site that's
got useful content and resources like yours and I think it would be
a great idea if you could put it on your site since it can be very
useful to your visitors, too. Here's the site:
Thanks again and let me know if I've helped you in any way.
Clare, thanks for the feedback and keep up the interest in our poor
As can be seen by the red outlined public notices below, there
has been a bit of a spate concerning members of a Kelly forum miss
using 'others' images in order to push their case scenario for
Stringybark Creek. Sorry about that.
|Bill Denheld, 19 Aug 2012,
Public Apology to Kelvyn Gill.
Following revelations that KC2000 forum member * pseudonym
'Poorflower' is now shown on that forum postings as a 'moderator'
leads me to believe Kelvyn Gill is not Poorflower. I make my apology
to Kelvyn Gill.
From threads 'csi@sbc' and 'Gloves are off Denhold' shows
Poorflower as 'Moderator'
while four other individuals had titles Advanced or Senior member
titles -only Poorflower shows up as Moderator as below.
The fact Poorflower, nor Bruce
Johnson - forum Admin KC2000, has not responded to my demand to have
proper citations inserted next to images that were copied from my
web pages without regard for their right to do so, shows disdain and
disrespect for the owners, namely myself and the Victorian Police
Museum VPM, and this matter will be further dealt with. Bill Denheld
|Kelvyn Gill 15/08/2012
DEFAMATORY PUBLISHED MATERIAL-DENHELD This email DEMAND requires you
to both publish this response and issue a public apology (ON YOUR
DISJOINTED WEB SITE) as you have PUBLISHED DEROGATORY AND DEFAMATORY
statements about me. I refer to your PUBLISHED words contained in
your email to
firstname.lastname@example.org sent Friday, 27 July 2012 6:22 PM
Subject: Use of my photos from Vic police Museum wherein you say
have proof that Poorflower pseudonym is
xxxxxxxx l", and "There are
three images that xxxxxxxxl (Poorflower) has used without my
permission. This can be rectified by him or you adding the following
text for images - A, B, C and D" (three ? but four alpha references
??: Pretty typical of your sloppy work it seems to me) Well,
DENHELD, I AM NOT POORFLOWER, let me repeat this as you seem
incapable of sensible discourse: I AM NOT POORFLOWER!!
NEVER HAVE BEEN,
NEVER WILL BE!!
Thank you Kelvyn Gill, I am sorry to have made
public the email to Bruce -re connection of you being
Poorflower. The readers and myself want to know how is it, THAT
Poorflower has added the csi@sbc stamp
onto one of my Burman photo images shown here and on your
The Report thread at KC2000
forum ? Can you please explain that?
This is a small
copy of the Burman photo that has been stamped with csi@sbc which
leads readers to assume the photo belongs to csi@sbc report and this
is breach of copyright and needs to be addressed.
question is the cropping of an image taken by me of the two huts
site which has been used by Poorflower. Please click on this image
below to enlarge-
Kelvyn, you say on a new thread 'Queensbury Rules' -
I have no need to take images from
anyone! I have and still do work with members of the Vic Police
Museum on matters of mutual interest AND WHEN I NEED ANY IMAGES I
OBTAIN AND SIGN APPROPRIATE USAGE PAPERS WITH THE VIC POLICE. "
I obtain my images
the same way and honour the citation requirements too, so lets get
Poorflower or Bruce to do the same. If anyone can tell me who Poorflower is,
and if it is not Kelvyn Gill, I will make a public apology to him. Bill
reference to alpha 'D' refers to the Mr Cuddon SBC photo which
Poorflower uses without citation as suggested " The Engelke Family
KC2000 Forum is closed. Bruce Johnson,
forum starter has made an announcement claiming the reason being,
that I had sent him 'threatening' emails. Here below are the emails
that were sent to him three times
It concerns him KC2000 being responsible for proper citations
regarding images posted by one of his
pseudonym forum members 'PoorFlower'
on KC2000 forum. Proper citation rules have to be adhered to as
Bruce, has not take the action requested of him, and the same email
was sent to the Victorian Police Museum notifying them that a
copyright breach that had occurred for some time and was now out of
I am sorry the forum is closed, but I had to notify Bruce of his
All that was required of him was for proper citation of the sources
of the images used on KC2000 forum. Bill.
Bill Denheld [mailto:email@example.com]
Sent: Monday, 6 August 2012 1:55 PM
Subject: FW: Use of my photos from Vic police Museum
I have placed this message below on my reply webpage regarding-
As you have not yet responded to my email - copy below, I thought I
would remind you of this requirement as you are host to this content
that is owned by VPM.
Regarding the images below, you should edit all your
postings and include the following citations, for this had
been an agreement with the Victorian Police Museum (VPM)
where this original was photographed by me. I do not own the
Burman photo copy as shown. I have permission from the VPM
to use this image. For this Burman photo please insert this
citation where ever you have used this image.
" Original Image - VPM208 Carte de Visite, A.W. Burman
Stringybark Creek Re-enactment .Reproduced with permission
from the collection of Victorian Police. Image courtesy Bill
Denheld ironicon.com.au -
If this is not done the KC2000 forum owner will be seen as
contravening the VPM requirements.
Bill Denheld [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]
Sent: Sunday, 29 July 2012 9:53 AM
Subject: FW: Use of my photos from Vic police Museum
Hello Bruce, I resend this email as I
was not sure it was sent on Friday.
You can always give me a ring on - - - - - - -or - - - - - - -
Bill Denheld [mailto:email@example.com]
Sent: Friday, 27 July 2012 6:22 PM
Subject: Use of my photos from Vic police Museum
It is a sad state of affairs taken by you regarding your forum
towards myself and Carla.
1, You must remove my name from your copyright notice KC2000 as
it is defamatory to me.
2, You have allowed a 'nom de plume' member 'Poorflower' to create
a thread "The Gloves are off Denhold". We know this is meant to be
Denheld and is me. This is also defamatory. You need to re
instate our membership so we can respond to anybody that puts
accusations and questions concerning my name - and research that we
are not able to answer to.
I have proof that Poorflower pseudonym is
xxxxxxx. ( another
pseudo xxxxxxxxn uses is T. McIntyre) Images on the 'SBC News and
Views' are images taken from a Compact disc I gave to Kelvyn and
Glenn when we were working towards resolving the SBC sites. I don't
believe Glenn is PoorFlower because he is not a vindictive person.
There are three images that
xxxxxxxll (Poorflower) has used
without my permission.
This can be rectified by him or you adding the following text for
images - A, B, C and D
the Burman photo2 held by the VPHU, of the scene at SBC, I took the
photo myself at the Police Museum of the only image, Carte de
Vistite in existence and I HAVE permission to use this image on my
WebPages ' Ironicon' and 'Two huts at StringyBark Creek'
Original Image courtesy Bill Denheld ironicon.com.au -
B, A small image of McIntyre's map reproduced with permission
Original Image courtesy Bill Denheld ironicon.com.au -
Image, Reproduced with permission from the collection of Victoria
Police. Reference to - VPM3847 Map, Thomas McIntyre
Stringybark Creek Ambush site.
C, Image from K McMenomy's book - Burman image1 taken from my
image collection via disc -
courtesy K.McMenomy, Ned Kelly- The Authentic illustrated Story 1984
D, Image Mr Cuddon. This Mr Cuddon image and dozens of others
was scanned by me for the Engelke family in WA and a copy CD was
given to Sheila Hutchinson for the MHS. Please see proper citation
is attributed as follows, as this was the agreement with Charlie
Engelke (now decessed)
courtesy of the Engelke family in WA
If these, my requests are not acted upon within this month (July
2012) you leave me no choice other than to copy and upload CSI@SBC
thread to Ironicon so I will be able to respond to all.
PS, I add the three images so you can
compare these to those posted by PoorFlower.
see CSI@SBC The report, 29/5, 20/07/2012, eight times Photo A
see SBC News and Views, 26/07, 02/08/2010 two times Photo A
see McIntyres map on 02/08/ 2010 at
Graeme Harrison 17 June 2012 Two Huts at SBC and Waltzing
I have been having a read of your
very interesting story regarding the Two Huts at Stringy Bark Creek.
Thanks for your persistence in compiling the story. Your discussions
with Ian Jones remind me of the saga regarding the history of
Waltzing Matilda and the struggle between Winton and its need to
push a tourist story of Waltzing Matilda and what appears to me to
be a much better researched story put together by Richard McGoffin
OAM. Regards, Graeme Harrison
Hello Graeme, With so much resistance to
exposing problematic history, one wonders how much of recorded
history is anywhere near the truth? I am somewhat chuffed you liken
my discourse with Ian Jones to the truth about Waltzing Matilda.
Glen Wilkie, 29 April 2012, The Kelly Hut at
Hello Bill, You have done so much great work attempting to fill in
the numerous blanks. I was at the Police killings 'site' in 1986
from Brisbane and found the site unrecognizable from the
descriptions. Congratulations on your research. I am planning a
proper trip there now to spend as much time as I can. One thing that
stands out to me regards the description Const James made of the
Kelly Hut that it had a door but no window. In the photo I did not
see a window but there is a window opening! Just the same there can
be no door but still have a door opening. I am a Builder of 40 years
this is how we describe what was said about the window. Right or
wrong I do not know. However this does not look like a fortified
hut, however what is the outbuilding attached to the hut, is it the
shelter for the "dummy" still as Ned had described? with the real
one down by the creek? Regards.....................Glen Wilkie
Hello Glen, I have always questioned the picture of the crossed log
cabin hut. The Tolmie work party photographed a hut site - seen
burnt to the ground around 1883, (titled Kelly's Camp) as shown on
Two huts at SBC webpages. The out buidings you refer to may just
have been wood shed shelter and nothing to do with the dummy
'still'. Ian Jones has a cast iron ring fragment he alleges came
from the Kelly whisky still, but no way of knowing if that was from
the still. I provide as much information as I could gather, and
still find it all a puzzle. Constable James most probably described
the hut as shown in the Tolmie picture. Bill See
To which Glen replied-
'fortified hut' photo can't be right also the chimney does not
appear of log construction as described, instead more like flitch or
slab. Also it appears to be in the open, surely they wouldn't leave
themselves so exposed, their horses would be easily be shot if
attacked? Maybe this is Dan's hut? Ned did not mention that he had
another hut however he did say he had a house two miles of fencing
and twenty acres of ground cleared for the purpose of distilling
whiskey. He said they had a place erected close to the house with a
small distill, he also said they had the most valuable distill
further down the creek with sugar and other requisitions. It would
be reasonable to assume that these valuable items were in some
shelter maybe their fortified hut? it maybe the Tolmie work party
did not know about the fortified hut therefore did not photograph
it? You mentioned Bill Stewart saw the four corner posts of the
hut. The 'fortified hut' doesn't have corner posts however all log
huts that have a door will have posts in ground either side of the
opening. Also I think that most log huts would have posts in ground
along the walls to support the log ends(not corners). Even if the
Kelly hut was only 4mtrs x 4mtrs to lift hardwood logs 5mtrs long x
600 mm, 2.1 mtrs high will take a lot of lifting. It is more likely
I think that shorter logs were used with posts in ground but not the
corners which it seems were half checked and overlapped. Maybe that
is what Bill saw as a child? Posts in ground but not corner
posts? This is so hard to work backwards well if nothing you
have strengthened a long interest I and many others have in this
important part of our DNA. Regards...........Glen
Hi Glen, My scenario as stated is that the the Tolmie
hut site was the fortified hut - that Const James described ?
9/05/2012 Hi Bill,
Sorry I've mixed up the photographers of the huts. Unless there is
other evidence, it does not seem likely that Ned would have been at
home during the Fitzpatrick incident, would someone like Const. Fitz. go
to the Kelly home alone without a warrant, molest Ned's sister in
front of Ned and all of the others? If Ned was at home during that
incident, then why did Mrs. Kelly single Ned out to say that he was
not at home and not any of the others? Wouldn't she say nobody was
home that night ? Regards Glen
Bob James, recent, They Called Each other Brother-
Bill, no doubt you get lots of ratbags with all sorts of suggestions
about 'the truth' of Ned Kelly. Mine concerns the green sash, which
from its size, shape and color I believe was that worn by initiated
members of the HACBS, (the AOH in the USA), that is, the Catholic
friendly society, the Hibernian Australasian Catholic Benefit
Society. Can I respectfully suggest you read about this in my
'They Call Each Other Brother - Secret Societies and the Strange
Slow Death of Mateship in Australia, 1788-2010',
published privately in 2010, copies from me at $30 (posted) if
unable to find anywhere else. Cheers, Dr Bob
PS, There is no 'proof ' in the book the well-known sash is
Hibernian, but I have seen it and I have a number of examples here
in my collection which 'match'. The book provides the context.
Thanks Bob, Sounds an interesting bit of
research. I add your email so others can contact you direct.
bja94988 at bigpond.net.au
Faye Harkess, 18 March 2012, A small piece of information,-
Hello Bill, Over the years , when I see and read about Ned Kelly, I
am constantly reminded of my Grandmother telling me, as I was
growing up, about Ned and the family. My family are Irish, both
sides, and she told me how the Kelly family were harassed in
Ireland, coming from near where my family lived, Tipperary, and the
harassment was coming from the English. The harassment followed to
Australia, and never let up. My Grandmother related to me that the
English hatred of the Irish was intense, and anything that could be
done to annoy them and to give false statements/evidence was done.
My grandmother , being about 10-11 years old at the time that the
Kelly gang were being searched for, would be sitting inside the
small wattle daub hut, with her Mother, listening for sounds
of Kate Kelly's horse going to give food to Ned- holed up
somewhere. My Great Grandmother would sit with a gun across her
knees, ready for the questioning police who were out searching for
Kate, to find out where she was headed. The word would go out "
bush telegraph " , that Kate was going tonight and the bush
people would do what they could to protect her form the police.
My Great Grandfather was a water diviner, and was often away, many
miles water divining for farming properties. He was successful at
this, but left the family alone, which is my G.Grandmother learnt
to use a gun, but not for protection from the Kelly Gang, but from
harassing police. The police were well known , in the district, for
being bullies. I felt, in the telling to me of this, that there was
a lot of sympathy for the Kelly's, from the battlers in
surrounding areas. I have always felt that Ned and his family,
were pushed beyond commonsense and endurance. Yours sincerely,
Hello Faye, Wow, what a great story to have in the
family. It just goes to show what wild times there must have been
for ordinary folk out there. Ned certainly upset the apple cart when
you can recall your family's awareness of Kate coming through. Would
this have been the time when Ned and Dan were in hiding at Bullock
Creek and before the shootings at Stringybark Ck? It's always great
to read these stories as it shows how close history really is. Thank
you for your account. Bill
|Bill Denheld, 1 March 2012
Subject, Kelly Country 2000 forum, topic,
HAS THE USEFUL LIFE OF KC2000 FORUM COME TO AN END ?
I have been following with interest the
latest thread to discontinuing the forum.
As my wife Carla and myself have been banned from the KC forum, I
would like to explain.
The administrator of this forum removes / deletes important
postings from a serious debate with the intention to slant the
argument. This is not in the spirit of a debate and 'he' has broken
one of his own rules, e.g. - he has banned Sharon Hollingsworth and
Dave White from the forum for deleting their postings.
I was banned for allegedly 'stealing a forum thread, which is
ridiculous as it was I that was the main contributor to the
Stringybark Creek thread, and my wife Carla was also banned even
though she rarely made any postings ! , and apparently, this
administrator claimed copy right of public forum thread content, and
that is not true as there is no
copyright on a public forum thread unless a contributor posts
his/her material claiming copyright.
The legal interpretation of copyright is that any literary and works
of art belong to the author, and thus I have every right to re
publish my research elsewhere including the text of others, (unless
they had claimed copyright at time of their posting), they cannot
claim copyright if their contribution is already in the public
domain. However, if they did it would have to be an extraordinary
important string of words for them to want to claim copyright.
It should be noted the administrator of KC2000 had previously lost
hundreds of interesting Ned Kelly threads when his forum host
deleted the entire account ? This was a serious loss of
thousands of hours by forum participants and the administrator
advised all on the New forum to back up their postings and threads.
When I realised the
SBC thread was in danger of being changed to suite an argument by
the administrator, e.g. admin had removed a
pseudonym * 'PoorFlower'
postings that were important to the argument, I saw the need to
upload a 'read only' copy on my webpage to keep check . I have never
claimed it to be my own.
So, by me providing a back up 'read only copy' to the readers on
ironicon.com.au in order to keep check on deletions and changing
thread content at KC2000, this is not an infringement of copyright.
Also, it should be noted there is a clause in the Copyright Act that
allows certain copyright material content to be re used.
Quote - " Fair dealings for the purposes of research or
study under the Copyright Act " This is to ensure the
advancement of knowledge
Unless a forum
debate is allowed to function freely without any interference
-except for rudeness or bad language, why are people like Carla and
myself excluded and not be able to defend ourselves, like what
Darren Sutton is doing at this very moment, and with every right !
Why would a forum administrator ban people like us from his public
forum, when we have contributed a great amount of time and research
concerning something we believe in and is correct, and as many forum
members have pointed out "we can all have an opinion".
In Noeleen Lloyd's words, "history should be questioned and not
taken for granted", if shown to be
wrong, should be 'argued' and not left up in the air", just because
some books tell it differently.
PS, Carla and I sincerely hope the forum does not fold. It remains a
great resource for all followers of the Kelly story. May we urge you
all to back up your KC2000 postings.
We can respect a person with a real
there is always a problem with a 'pseudonym'
as we do not know who they are.
Bill Purvis, 7 Jan
2012, Death mask sculpture-
Hi Bill I am working on a death mask sculpture for a photo project
and came across your site. I have noticed that the death mask held
in the Old Melbourne Goal shows a distorted ear on the same side as
the swelling on the neck. This may happen from rope burn or
laceration at the moment of hanging. The problem with the mask is
that I believe from research the hangmans noose was placed on the
left side but this is on the right? I have been mucking around
creating a Ned figure which you can view at:
www.australianphotographcollector.blogspot.com I have since
created a more realistic .577 schneider-enfield replica of Betty and
doing some simulated 'live' firing for a photo shoot. I appreciate
the work you have done on your site. Your 3D images are great.
Cheers Bill Purvis
The image of shows your command for sculpture
and modeling, but wonder what the purpose might be to depict the
anguish of our poor Ned ? Will we get to see the full context of
your work ? Bill
McCaskey, 3/Jan/ 2012 Doing the Bolt - Convict and Bushrangers
Just reading your posts ... and thought I would let you know my
husband and I are curators of
www.convictandbushrangers.com.au We offer NON judgmental
talks on Ned Kelly ... in shops and schools. One day out of the blew
I received an email ... full of abuse and threats.. It took a
number of emails for me to even understand WHAT he was going on
about considering I had NEVER met or spoken to the man. I was
going to go to Beechworth Kelly Weekend in 2011 but he left me with
NO DOUBT he would make my weekend miserable so I cancelled my trip..
I did advise the organisers and have since received three or four
emails/calls from members of the public who also have had this
same interaction with him. Sharyn
Can you forward one of those offending emails as I would like to
know who it was from. Thanks,
Sharyn's reply -
Hi Bill, The emails I received
were from the guy who runs ironoutlaw.. he SIGNED them each
I simply was letting you know that your'e not alone and that I am
aware of a number of parties having the same issues.... and that
Beechworth are also aware of the complaints about him and his
attitude to others in the industry... he is in short a BULLY.
Sharyn, I had a look at your webpages and they're
real good. Keep up the good work. History
is very important and the truth will come out. Regarding the man
from ironoutlaw, I had a similar
incident with a Mr Brad Webb when he offered
"to bump into me in the street one day" the day before a Beechworth
weekend, He does not work alone intimidating those that may have an
alternative point of view. See feedback 18th June 2009
" Who is
allowed to tell the Kelly story"
Gill, 24 Dec 2011,
CSI@SBC and your disingenous attempt to ridicule the paper.
Mr Denheld. You
are a very disingeneous person putting selected wording from the CSI
@ SBC Team's "K28" paper online to which you have prefaced it with a
photograph of the team's July 2011 report which has been released
for general information. You have used wording from an early DRAFT.
Draft version K28 was a working version which was superceded by
further drafts and culminating in the team's March 2010 report. This
report was provided only to Government departments, agencies and
other bodies with an interest in the topic and was not released for
general information. Your claim that "in essence, the texts of
subsequent versions are unchanged" DOES NOT reflect the extensive
material, including further material, of the July 2011 published
report. So if this is how you provide objective comment and analysis
then it does little credit to your methods of analysis and objective
review of published material. No doubt your way will be seen over
time to be an amateurish attempt to try to discredit the extensive
and detailed report, which draws upon ALL of the (currently) known
material concerning the question of the position of the Police camp
site at Stringybark Creek. To give you just one example of your
misleading and inaccurate words: YOU SAY: "In the past I have been
in touch with PROV and PHU and neither have this sketch." and you go
on to quote from McMenomy. Well, Mr Denheld you only have to
look at the team's published report to obtain a PRECISE reference to
where this sketch CAN BE FOUND in the records of the Public Records
Office. And isn't it interesting that it is within the papers of the
Crown Law Department !! The second very extensive diagram (drawn to
scale and annotated) prepared by McIntyre and reproduced in the
team's report was unknown until it was found in 2008 by M/s Liz
Marsden the Collections Manager, Victoria Police Museum & Historical
Services of the Victoria Police AND which first went on public
display, in August 2009, within the Victoria Police Museum display,
at the annual Ned Kelly weekend. You may recall that on my return
from the Kelly weekend that I alerted the team to the diagram's
existance and shortly thereafter commenced to discuss, with Ms
Marsden, the issue of being able to examine it (and reproduce it).
This I have been led to understand is not how you in the past have
identified the method by which this document was discovered (and by
whom it was found) when it was the subject of an article by Mr Paul
Millar, -"Police map discovery takes gloss off Ned Kelly", published
in the Melbourne Age 12 September. Mr Millar was first made aware of
this diagram by me. You can confirm how this diagram was found by
reference to the Journal of Australian Colonial History, Vol 13,
2011 in which Ms Marsden's paper is at pp242 -248. This diagram (THE
ORIGINAL) is catalogued and held by the Victoria Police Museum and
NO copy of it is in any of the "Kelly files" of the Public Records
Office!! Now IF YOU WERE TO DO AN OBJECTIVE story about this paper
by the team, I offer just one example: Perhaps you would comment on
other material therein such as the extensive report of the Herald's
reporter and how it cannot be said that your claimed site fits the
description given by him (and which is confirmed by professional
survey of the country commissioned by the Team and the results of
which provide a profile of the land which matches precisely to the
description given by the Herald reporter). You prefer to resort to
the banal also: To quote you: "What a lot of crap" .....; and "ars"
- perhaps you meant "arse" ?) And I do need to also reference your
words when you refer to the Team's identified camp site "This cannot
be the site of the shootout, in actual fact, gentlemen, like they
say your site [is] up the creek - truly." Well, Actually our site is
down the creek. Yours is literally up the creek. Suffice to say I am
not going to waste any further of my time continuing with words to
show that you have done a lousy job of being a critical reviewer of
the report. The report is now in the public domain and I am sure it
will be seen to be an extensive, factually based report that is very
worthy of serious consideration and analysis by those with an
interest in the matter, and most importantly of course by the
authorities (both State and local) who will ultimately decide the
merits of the research undertaken by the team.
And a merry Xmas
to you too, Bill
Thank you Kelvyn Gill. For someone who has such mastery of the
English language, it's a pity your 'team's book,
CSI@SBC did not take into account all the evidence on the ground
at Stringybark Ck, such as Two old fireplaces, a Slope, the early
newspaper illustrations of the scene of the 'murders', the
Orientation of the Burman photo which is looking South -not North -
(you silly fellows) and then your team decided on a site that
displays no such crucially important markers as mentioned above.
Dear Kelvyn, please take a look at this photo (link below) where in
you stand on the road with other team members. It was the day I
pointed out there was no slope comparable to the Burman photo near
the Kelly tree.
Bob James, 23/12/2011 - They Called each other Brother.
Bill, no doubt you get lots of ratbags with all sorts of suggestions
about 'the truth' of Ned Kelly. Mine concerns the green sash, which
from its size, shape and color I believe was that worn by initiated
members of the HACBS, (the AOH in the USA), that is, the Catholic
friendly society, the Hibernian Australasian Catholic Benefit
Society. Can I respectfully suggest you read about this in my
'They Call Each Other Brother - Secret Societies and the Strange
Slow Death of Mateship in Australia, 1788-2010',
published privately in 2010, copies from me at $30 (posted) if
unable to find anywhere else. Cheers, Dr Bob
Hello Dr Bob James, Please send me a copy. Sounds very
interesting, a must for all Ned readers. (With holding your email
address to stop spamers, but anyone interested contact me for
Alison Williams, 23 Dec. 2011. Percy Bromfield.
G'day Bill, I am currently researching my Family tree. On my fathers
side I am 7th Generation descendants of William and Isabella Tyson,
parents of James Tyson Cattle King, I am now looking into my Mothers
Side which is "Bromfield" . I have noticed on your site a few
references to a "Percy Bromfield" . My Grandfather is Percy Morrison
Lettique Bromfield born 1898 in Mansfield, His father was a Percy
William Bromfield born abt 1854 Family information in that Percy
William Bromfield was a surveyor, and married Emily Rose Lettique
Wilson. Percy Broomfield's father a Percy Fitzpatrick Bromfield was
also a surveyor. I am wondering if you have any additional
information that would link My Percy Bromfield to your Percy
Bromfield. Regards Alison Williams.
Hello Alison, I do
remember getting an email from a descendant of Percy Bromfield re
Stringybark Creek. When I dig it up I will forward this contact to
you. Best wishes, Bill
Christensen, USA, 5/10/2011, Feedback - Ned Kelly in AUS - Custer
I'm a 62 year old history lover in the Kansas City area and only
recently have become aware of the Ned Kelly saga. I can't tell you
how much I'm enjoying your thorough site and your intelligent
research. Very impressive indeed and quite similar to the amazing
research done in the past 20 years based on the new discoveries at
the Custer Battlefield site here in the US. Wonderful work indeed!
Verne Christensen, Olathe, Kansas
Hello Verne, thank you for the encouraging feedback. Are you able to
give me the links to Custer battlefield site, and I will upload to
feedback soon. thanks, Bill
Verne followed up the following -
Hi Bill, Thanks for
your response. As you may guess, the Custer Battlefield is one of
the most researched and controversial sites in North America but the
fire of 1983 brought forth many new opportunities to reanalyze the
dynamics of the battle itself and offer new and fascinating
interpretations of what happened that day. And of course the
publications based upon that research and analysis seem to be
endless as well! There are numerous websites on the battle and here
are a few that you may want to browse. Fascinating material.
And of course our
National Park Service has a good site (but brief). Take a look at
their little multimedia films.... http://www.nps.gov/libi/photosmultimedia/multimedia.htm
Over the past
couple of years I've read the following 2 books and highly recommend
each of them.
I'm a big fan of "before and after" photos and this book is very
impressive in the research done to track down locations from photos
taken after the battle.
book does a wonderful job of bringing to life the troop movement
dynamics of the days and weeks before and after the battle as well
as fleshing out the minutia of the day's events.
I live in Olathe,
Kansas on the SW of the Kansas City Metro area which is 1000 miles
from the battlefield site but we also have some closer Custer
related sites. Fort Leavenworth in Leavenworth Kansas is 30 miles
NW of our home and there one will find Custer items in the Post
museum, the Custer home, the Post Chapel (where the first memorial
services post battle were held for the casualties) and the
Leavenworth National Cemetery where 4 deceased were buried, one of
is Tom Custer, George's brother and coincidentally the only
serviceman ever awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.... twice.
I'm a 1973 alum of
the University of Kansas in Lawrence, Kansas (25 miles west of our
home) and there one will find the stuffed horse Comanche, the mount
of Myles Keogh. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche_(horse)
Must run now and
hope you find as much interest in reading the above as I have in
your wonderful site. Regards, Verne Christensen
Michael Hogan, 10 July 2011 Jerilderie.
Bill.I wonder what you know of what happened in Jerilderie. My Great
Grandfather was Thomas Mountjoy Hogan who was manager of
Younghusbands station near the town. I was always told that when the
Kelly's held up Jerilderie Ned Kelly was riding his horse and using
rode thoroughbreds and was a great horseman. He always said that Ned
Kelly was a gentleman. Also my Grandfather Joseph Hogan was the last
licencee of The Turks Head Hotel in Albury (now the museum) and all
the workers in and around the pub were Kelly family members..I
wonder who they were..
All the very best with your work..Michael Hogan
While I do not know too much of the Jerilderie side of the Kelly
story it is great that you have a connection. I think to refer to
'Kelly family members' we should also include the Quinns, Lloyds,
and the Griffiths children, boys /men and women. They were all
persecuted by the authorities and would have gravitated to safe
places of like minded people and districts. We know for sure Ned and
his mates spent a long time around around Jerilderie and sister town
Berrigan. In fact Ned's Beveridge school mate E J Gorman was
foundation member for the Federation League. There are numerous
descendant oral history accounts of properties where the gang were
sheltered and looked after. With thanks, Bill
Janice Monk, 2 June 2011, Monk Family Tree
I found your website 'Two Huts' engrossing. My husband, Richard
Monk, has always been told that their family may have a connection
to the Kelly Gang. All I have been able to find so far is Edward
Monk referred to on your website. I have not been able to find any
information on his family tree to see if he is related to our branch
of the family. Just a long shot but I was wondering if you could put
me in touch with any descendants of Edward who are researching
family history who might be able to help. My husband's great
- grandfather was a Frederick Monk married to Alice Quinn who is
reported to have settled in Bright Victoria and then moved his
family to the Mendooran/ Dunedoo district of NSW.Kind Regards Janice
I will put you intouch with Yvonne Monk of
Yarra Glenn Victoria, glad I could help. Bill
Mark Sands, 8 April 2011
Is there a person in the doorway of Ellen Kelly's home coming photo?
Hello again. I spoke to you via email about 18 months ago. Several
months ago, I was corresponding with Gary Dean over several theories
concerning the Kelly armor and prison photos. One night when I was
restoring some old Kelly photos I came across something quite
remarkable. I emailed Gary some photos asking him if he was aware of
what I had seen in one of the photos and have had no response from
him since. There is a possibility that Gary felt I was not on the
level with him, but that couldn't be further from the truth.
Would you be interested in offering me some feedback on the photo?
photos I was referring to was actually just one photo, but presented
two different ways. It was the picture taken to celebrate Ellen's
return to Eleven Mile Creek...
I cleaned the image up on Photoshop and made a black and white print
as well as a Sepia copy. I did this simply because I created a
personal presentation of the Kelly's to the song 'Kelly's Heroes'..
In the door way of the Kelly house, there appears to be a male
figure standing back in the shadows... To gain the best relief, put
it into a file and enlarge it on the computer. The Sepia
version brings out more clarity, and actually highlights the form.
like to know your opinion on it. Like I asked Gary, has anyone seen
this before or was he (Gary) aware of it? Anyway, thanks
again, Bill and I hope to hear from you soon.
Regards. Mark Sands Rivervale, Western Australia
Thanks Mark. At first I was not
sure whether to add this fascinating observation to feedback as it
is more a story on its own. The image is part of the SLoV photo
collection but the image you emailed me has the original yellow
mount unlike this one here -
In order to show my thoughts I had put together his tweaked images,
click below -http://www.ironicon.com.au/ellen-kelly-home-coming-photo.pdf
Shortly after Mark received this PDf, he emailed his response -
19 April 2011 -
Firstly, I'd like to thank you for offering your professional
feedback, analysis and opinion of the photos I emailed you. I must
say that I gave it several days to digest your opinion before
replying and also stress that the images were sent to you in good
image was originally down loaded from Google images and was
yellowish in color and in a fairly bad way. Like I have already
mentioned, I was simply eliminating the scratches and blotches with
the image blown up when something caught my eye.
Several Kelly books I own include this photo, and the image in the
doorway appears in most, more noticeable in some more than others.
It is also noticeable in my copy of 'Ned Kelly a Short Life' by Ian
most regards, you are correct by saying that it does not really
matter who it was (if anyone at all), I have said this myself.
However, in my own defense, I have looked at this long and hard and
asked the opinion of several family members (of all ages), all of
whom had little trouble reaching the same conclusion as I.
some ways, it all makes little sense to me as the more I look into
it, the more questions are raised.
Firstly, photo opportunities like this one in 1880 were rare.
Granted, rarer in 1875 but not as rare in 1885 so if it is a person,
it would be safe to say that it was not a family member; being
excluded from the photo. Or if it was, say Jim (and the height is
there), was he just standing back to be courteous to the girls?
was a non-family member, say a Kelly boarder, why would they stand
in the doorway? They would probably be more inclined to get well out
of sight, or maybe look out the window instead. They would have no
technical knowledge of photography and would not have known about
lighting exposure. I can almost imagine the photographer saying 'No,
you're alright in the doorway; you won't be seen.' It would have
been the midday sun on the bright foreground that has thrown the
figure into partial relief.
course, it's just a brief moment in time, but has some movement in
the doorway caught the attention of Faith, the cattle dog?
will attach the original image with it's original file name as taken
from Google images.
I know it's not exactly unlocking the secrets of the Kelly universe,
but if it really was someone standing there, I feel it adds depth to
an already amazing photo of Kelly history.
closing, I would like to say that your opinion on the matter is
much valued and highly appreciated and I thank you again for lending
me your time. Regards Mark Sands Rivervale, Western Australia
Anyone - further feedback welcome ?
Deb Kruz, 8
March 2011 Glenrowan ???
Hi Bill My husband and I went to Glenrowan today and attended the
Glenrowan tourist centre's "production". To say we were disappointed
was probably a gross understatement. How are your plans progressing?
They look visionary and very appealing. Thanks Deb Kruz
Thanks Deb, we can only be hopeful the design
architecture, the function and facilties for the new
Ned Kelly Centre for Glenrowan will become the gem in the crown for
John McLean, 17Nov 2010
Webley hand gun holster maybe of police party hunt for Kellys?
A good friend and fellow arms collector informs me that you and some
associates have been researching the Police murders at Stringbark
Creek. Having perused the website “ironicon” I am very impressed
with your work regarding the locality of the actual murders, and
have carefully read the linked evidence and witness statements etc.
Yourself, or your associates, may well have come across some
information which is relative to a Victorian Police Webley holster
in my collection, details as follow:-
Brown leather flap-top holster, flap fastened to brass stud sewn
into holster body.
Belt loop sewn to rear of holster reinforced by two copper rivets
(In similar fashion to the Navy Colt holsters of the VP)
“12243” stamped into the flap of holster (presumably the serial
number of the pistol) “738” stamped at the top of holster body
(i.e. under flap when closed), which appears to be the kit issue
number (common on the many surviving Vic. Police Colt revolvers &
holsters, also Adams revolvers) The belt side of the holster
shows some old damage from some type of impact; otherwise it is in
excellent slightly worn original condition.
Of the many hundreds of Webley RIC revolvers purchased by the
Victorian Police during the 1870’s this is the only known holster;
in fact to my knowledge there is only one known Victorian Police
issue (and marked) Webely RIC revolver (thankfully in private
hands). This was all good enough for me and my fellow collectors,
until during recent research I found an article in “The Ovens and
Murray Advertiser” of July 24th, 1880 of which a partial
“Interesting particulars with regard to the capture of
the gang …..Constable Robert McHugh ……. about one o’clock in the
afternoon …….. stumbled across a revolver lying on the ground and
covered with blood, in the vicinity of the spot where the capturer
of Edward Kelly was effected …….. it was a Webley revolver, and had
at one time been issued to the Police Department-it bearing the
number of the member … to whom it was issued-viz., 730. …….. the
murderous weapon being without a holster at the time, a young man
named John Sherritt (brother to Aaron) …… produced two or three
leathern holsters, which had become detached from the belt worn by
Kelly at the time of his arrest …… one bearing a corresponding
number to that stamped on the revolver …… the revolver and holster
must have been taken from the person of Constable Lonigan after that
officer had been shot down …… his police number having been that
What chance the holster with kit issue number “738” may have been
originally issued to a Police officer at about the same time and
locality of Lonigan’s issue? Maybe even one of the Police attacked
by the Kellys? Unfortunately the Victorian Police Museum can shed no
light on records of Kit issue numbers, and a search through the
Police Gazettes has so far uncovered no further information.
Possibly you have come across some listing of the serial numbers /
kit issue numbers of the weapons and other equipment stolen from the
police party at Stringybark Creek? Apologies for such a long-winded
email, thought it best to share my search with others whilst I had
the information at hand.
Regards John R. McLean
question John. Anyone out there with more information?
Gordon, 17 Aug 2010 Kelly Camp on Stokes's land
hi ya, my name is neil gordon, i have just re-kindled my interest in
the kelly gang and have now more than a passing interest in the
areas surrounding the the kelly gangs secret hideouts, especially
now that i have found out that my great uncles or great great uncles
(unsure just yet ) george and walter were the stokes' (my mothers
maiden name is stokes) whose land was known to be used by the kellys.
it now seems to me after taking an interest in your website that
george stokes' property had the kellys hut on it which ajoined the
Mc crums property. do you have any information of the stokes' in the
area and any other involvement they may have had with the kelly's, i
find it hard to fathom how george wouldnt have known about the
kelly's on his land? cheers neil
Hi Neil, I think the situation is that Stokes took up the land
long after the Kelly occupation at Bullock Creek. The first map of
the area did not come till 1884. The Stokes family would have
known but perhaps many people at the time would not have cared too
much about the Kellys, or where the Kelly camp hide out was located.
I cannot add to the history but you could give Sheila Hutchinson an
email as may have more info about Walter Stokes that is not on her
http://www.ironicon.com.au/validlinks.htm With thanks,
|Scott Duncan, 3 Aug 2010, The Hut
Behind the School.
I’ve read your article on the “Hut behind the School” many times and
find it fascinating.It whets my appetite to think that this is at
least one of the locations that the boys used for long periods of
time whilst eluding the police, which not too many people have
actually seen. Have you done any more, or intend to do any more
research on this, and if so; when. I would be more than willing to
be part of it. At the very least; I would love to visit the site.
So, if you are going up that way or can provide me with suitable
directions, I would be forever grateful. Whilst I’m in querie mode:
do you have any information on the location of the Greta Swamp? It’s
often cited as a hideout location, but I’ve never seen it pinpointed
on a map. Presumably it was north of Greta, to the right of the
current road to Glenrowan. If you could indicate the location
on a map or drawing it would help me orient some of my thoughts. In
the past, (some four or five years ago), you were most helpful in
providing information to me about the Kelly Hut site at Kellys
Creek, which made my investigations so much easier. I realize you
probably have many requests of this nature, and I don’t want to
impose; but any help would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Scott.
I remember you well . The
Hut behind the school is very difficult to get to but I will
organise another trip in. I will try and remember to let you know
There is a track that I need to sort out just where it starts. I
will need the land owner l to show me. I did enjoy working on that
excursion and story. I can't help you with the Greta Swamp but Gary
Dean probably can if you ring him - his website is on ironicon Bill
Mark Mason, 15
July 2010 Edward Monk's sawmill
Hello Bill, I am a current resident of Tolmie, and have been
informed that the property that I own is the site of Edward Monk’s
sawmill, this is where the police bodies were taken after the
shootout at Stringybark Creek. It is also the venue where the police
camped when the chase for Ned began, after the shootings. I am led
to believe that the remnants of a cottage down the road, was the
place where the Kelly gang armour was made, as this cottage was
owned by Joe Byrne’s parents. If you would like to visit these
places to view them and pass on any of your knowledge, please
contact me via the e-mail link below. Regards, Mark.
Thanks Mark, Sure several descendants will be
|Robert McGarrigle 25 March
2010 Regarding the true site at SBC
Bill you have
done an excellent if not brilliant job on your calculations. You
should definitely have been an engineer or mathematician. I
sincerely hope that you can convince these eggheads, excuse the pun
and bring them into your line of thought. I am utterly surprised
that people that have visited the site on the eastern bank have
never noticed that the slope is just not there. I am sure that after
132 years since the incident there would have been more than one
clearing at that particular time of the incident.
May I ask Bill when did you start doubting that the current site was
not the correct one ,as far as myself goes at my first visit there
it just didn't make sense to me. I remember your mate Ian Jones (ha,ha)
in his dvd of Ned Kelly saying at the Kelly tree that there was no
vibes there, well I would like to similarly say there are no vibes
for me at the current site.
will need to read your article,
several times over Bill to take it all in but what I have read is
very convincing and you are now getting very close to the truth. Its
funny how the creek is only a couple of kilometers long but is more
controversial in more ways than one in our country's history. I do
hope that the authorities will finally sit up and take notice of
your views and that it will all be put on public record.
Thanks once again Bob
Thanks Bob, I had doubts about the Kelly tree
site right from the start, and when I spoke to Ian Jones after his
2003 edition book launch Ned Kelly, A Short life, where in he
pointed to the East bank, I tried to see the slope that was not
there and thought - mm, maybe my perception of distance to the 'only
slope' in the area, as in the Burman photo was further away than I
thought due to zoom camera lens used by Burman. However, I now
realize after careful study the slope was not that far away from the
action after all. Bill
25 March 2010 Aaron Sherrit's hut
Hi Bill..I know you must
get inundated wit lots of off the wall questions,
here' s another.
Came across your website on Kelly Gang
and all the really interesting stuff you have on there
will have me up late into night reading all the
fascinating little extras and tidbits to the main
Kelly story of which I'm quite familiar with.
What got me to stumble across your site
is partly I am reading an excellant book at present
"the fatal friendship' Ian Jones..and it got me
remembering a time quite a while ago and I'm not sure
if time has blurred the memory as I was a child at the
time (about 9).
In the late 60's my parents took my brother and myself
on a road trip from Melbourne to Sydney, they must
have had some interest in the Kelly story themselves
as I do remember stopping at some of the more well
known attractions, Glenrowan etc.
However, I have a memory we drove down
past Beechworth into the Woolshed and along a dusty
track one late afternoon, we came to a spot and got
out of the car.My recollection is my parents telling
us this was site of Aaron Sherrit's hut and as we
looked around my mum pointed out what seemed to be
outlines of flower beds closest to the road.
I guess my question Bill is this, is this possible,
was there anything to see left from Aaron Sherrit's
hut, the site of his death, still evident in the late
60's ? Has the passage of 40 years confused me or a
childs memory somehow got things confused..any ideas
would be appreciated, I've thought about this often
over the years.
Thanks Bill, love your suff !
You are correct
that on the road edge there are growing some 'Krokis
flowers' . There were likely to have been flower
beds near by and perhaps Krokis's were remains of
that time. Perhaps the land owner in the mean time
has ploughed the beds in.
I was there in 2003 on a tour with a guide who told
the group that this spot is where the Sherrit hut /
house stood - pointing to the flowers.
I pointed out ( to the
guide ) that the hut would not be built on the road
verge but further up the block. I pointed to what
looked like a large granite slab some distance away
and assumed it would have been the front door slab.
Ian Jones was with us and he agreed with me. The
tour guide was not impressed. The point was, that
nobody even then would be allowed to just build
anywhere like on a road reserve. Those that did
would have no property rights building on 'common'
Linton Briggs, 20 March 2010, Re Stringybark
We agreed recently
that I should seek feed back from Kelvyn, Gary and Glen about your
case for the police campsite on the western bank at your two-hut
site which you earlier sent around the group for consideration.
have responded, and confirm they are confident that exhaustive
review of all the available evidence places the campsite further
north on the eastern bank, as concluded by the investigation draft
report, with which you are familiar.
does not mean to say the case you have developed is not worthy of
consideration and assessment by Heritage Victoria and other
interested parties. On the contrary, I at least have found your
case to be both stimulating and productive in the sense it has made
the group look more closely at some aspects of the development of
the other proposal. In fact, by looking more closely, the study has
been considerably strengthened in places.
example has been the search for and inclusion in the latest version
of the study, reference relating to establishing the camp on the
Stringybark Creek at the burnt hut. ….”which took us to the old
diggings, at the burn hut on the Stringybark Creek”,
further clarifying there were two huts, one burnt the remains of
which were apparent, the other, still standing in the bush outside
the campsite clearing. (Kenneally, Wilson Hall, Ned)
Another example relates to the rising terrain in
the background of the Burman photographs, the most important
topographical feature which I understand leads you to conclude the
Burman photographs were taken from a position facing south,
orienting the police camp at your two-hut site. We have included an
additional appendix (Heritage Victoria diagram 2205), a contour map
of the precinct, and additional commentary which demonstrates the
rising background at both the proposed campsites to be remarkably
similar. The 1897 Beautiful Mansfield (burl tree) photograph at
4.2.1 viewed together with the contour map reveals the background
terrain to be rising from the creek bed to the eastern skyline, a
height of about 30 metres, over a distance of about 340 metres. At
your two-hut site, looking to the southwest, the degree of slope is
almost identical. The study’s report commentary at 4.2.1 has been
amended to now read, in part:
4th paragraph: Timber harvesting and ring
barking since 1878 reduced vegetation density revealing background
Stringybark Creek topography rising about 30 metres east south east
to the eastern bank tableland elevation. This landscape feature is
also discernable in the Cuddon photograph below at 4.2.3 and in the
foreshortened Burman photograph plate 1 at 4.3, photograph number 4.
Appendix 13 is the map used by Heritage Victoria to
indicate the land (marked at L1 on diagram 2205), placed on the
Victorian Heritage Victorian Register in 2009. This map shows
ground surface contours at 10 metre intervals. From Stringybark
Creek opposite the police camp position (elevation under 770 metres)
the ground rises towards the east south east to 800 plus metres over
a distance of about 340 metres.
Incidentally, a blow up of photograph no. 1 confirms
the existence of a burl on the trunk of the tree in question, – not
just a bunch of leaves.
The group again confirms it remains strongly of the
opinion the two Burman photographs were taken from the western bank,
looking respectively to the east and east south east. The group
submits the rising background of photograph no 1 is the same
background portrayed by the Burman photographs.
The group acknowledges your tremendous drive and
effort to initially help bring a team together in order to challenge
the conventional wisdom of the day about the authentic campsite
It brought together a group of dedicated people, united in a common
The group has noted your advice to me you could no
longer remain a member of the team putting forward a proposal the
police camp was located near the present day Kelly Tree, but that
you would like your case to be presented to Heritage Victoria for
consideration. The group advises it is supportive of this course of
action, in the interest of providing Heritage Victoria with an
opportunity to add rigour to their assessment by evaluating another
The group feels that this would best be actioned
through yourself independently lodging your case with Heritage
Victoria. Accordingly, as discussed with you, I have drafted, for
consideration by the team, the following paragraph for inclusion in
the report’s introduction:
Bill Denheld, a former member of the investigating team, agrees that
the authentic location of the 1878 police camp is sited on the
western bank of Stringybark Creek, but that it was established at a
site 274 metres south of the present day Kelly Tree. Mr. Denheld
advises that he has developed a case which he will submit to
Heritage Victoria for consideration.”
When Kelvyn is able to produce a final version of the
report for lodgement with Heritage Victoria,
I will see that a copy will also be provided to you.
I will give you a ring some time next week to talk
through the above.
Kind regards, Linton Briggs
Seems the quest for rigor in the debate for
the true site at SBC has been replaced by inflexible false beliefs
based upon too much literal evaluation.
John Walters 6 January 2010 Feedback Twohuts
hi there, I am a Kelly follower from New Zealand and I think I am the
only one here! Some general interest but so hard to find facts or
opinions. Have a Kelly library and some related stuff. Have just
finished a bronze collectable figure of NK. I used to make my own NK
armour out of metal plate for myself and my friends and would then go
bush and shoot airguns at each other. I am probably one of the few
people in the world who knows how it feels to have bullets pinging
off their armour. Am a historical firearms collector and writer as well
as an A grade competition shooter.
I am new to the computer and hope to correspond with you
soon about some of my NK musings. Enjoyed your website very much, thank
you. regards from John Walters.
Interesting Ned Kelly Info
I might have some interesting info about Neds suits of armour.
Going through my family history, l see that there is a reference to
Ned Kelly in the Grigg Family (My mothers maiden name). I've scanned
the document and attached it for you to take a look at. In all honesty
I've thought that the maker(s) of the armour was always known, but I
only found out 2 days ago that it isn't. So hopefully this might shed
some light on the subject. Please feel free to contact me anytime, I
would be more than happy to have a chat with you.
(The note reads regarding Joseph and William Grigg, B 1851 &1854 " I
am told a letter exists in Tasmania from Joseph to Emma which explains
that Joseph is in Sydney He had left Wangaratta, the police had killed
his friend Ned Kelly who Joseph had made 4 suits of armour for. The
letter is with the Woods family Delorain.)
Ian, Any information to who
made the armour is interesting. The Woods family Deloraine, wonder if the
Laffans property at Beverage
Deloraine has any connection? The
Laffan family have a long connection with the area at Wallan East
where the Kellys and the
27 August 2009 Where was
Ned Kelly Born ?
I have read with great
interest your story on Where was Ned Kelly born.
My main interest stems from that fact that the neighbour
and midwife Mrs Mary Gorman who delivered Ned was my Great-great-great
Grandmother. This may have already been raised, but it is not really
correct that Emanuel James Gorman was "about the same age as Edward
Kelly". Emanuel was born in 1867, the eighth child of John Ambrose
Gorman. By this time, Ned's father had died and the family moved away
from Avenel. Therefore, any meaningful contact between the two is
unlikely. Emanuel James Gorman died in 1929 aged 62 years.
If Ned was close to one of the Gorman children through schooling
and age similarity, the most likely would have been Patrick, the
firstborn of John's children in 1855.
Thanks again for a great read. I was able to identify the Gorman
and Kelly properties on Google Earth from your map.
Regards Danny Fitzpatrick
Information from David Gorman
of Berrigan - you can phone
him on ----
Samuel Winter's niece married John Gorman - (
David Gorman's father.)
Samuel Winter owned the Melbourne Herald
from 1863 and started ANA 1871.
Sam Winter had a brother Joseph who ran the Catholic Advocate - Joseph
Winter's daughter married John Gorman - (
David Gorman's father.)
On the ship William
Metcalfe 1839 was- Patrick Gorman and Mary Cahill -
( married ). Mary
Cahill Gorman was midwife to Ned Kelly's birth.
board was - Bridget Kelly *
- (later bonded to the Quinns under work arrangements.)
J.B Were - the founder of
stock Broker firm.
The ship William Metcalfe was
owned by the British East India Company and its Captain was Capt
Brown. Capt Brown's son Thomas Alexander Brown wrote the book '
Robbery Under Arms'
17 August 2009 tipperary radio ireland
hi, i am the producer of the
morning talk show. its in the press over here about the campaign to
find ned kellys skull. theres a lot of interest
in him over here as his father came from tipperary. there are still
some of his relatives living in the area. would you be available for a
short live radio interview on the campaign sometime this morning. the
show goes out between 10am-12 (irish time) and is presented by seamus
martin. just email me you telephone number asap if available.
radio interview went to air about 1 hour later and lasted for 10
Sounds like there is more support for Ned In Ireland than in Aus.
16 August 2009 ned kelly's skull
my name is raymond french and im a kelly follower and very much in the
belief that he should have a full place of rest that meaning a proper
furneral i have been chasing about for many years for neds skull and
have always come up empty would be a great to work with people that
share the same ideas and passion about finding neds skull also could
you please tell me why that people still refer to ned being born in
1855 not 1854 i have done a lot of research into this and come up with
december 1854 as a date of birth once again please free to add more
information to this.
to hear what information you may have regarding the old bugger and be
able to share to the information
Raymond French .
Thanks Raymond, I will upload a pdf of Maikel Analeee's work on this,
Bill ( To be uploaded )
|Bill Denheld, With thanks to all those who have
supported this exposure below. One who contacted Brad Webb and then
passed his message onto us best summed it up,-
Willy Smart wrote email to Brad Webb of IronOutlaw feedback page - quote " why
do you make a total a--sole of your self sending out s--t like this, its
any wonder everybody thinks that you are a pr--k ".
PS, Wil is a no bull sort of guy that defends justice,and cheers to all.
- Bill D
Bill Denheld, 18th June 2009,
Who is allowed to tell the Kelly story ?
In response to a Kelly Country 2000 Forum thread being deleted by the
administrator, here is a COPY to keep the record straight.
See what was said and how some replied to Jox's thread " Family history -
Kelly/Quinns" topic, and after receiving an email
today from Brad Webb. ( below). I responded by posting his email on the
Jox's forum thread because no one needs to be intimidated in this way, and needs
to be exposed -
From: Brad Webb [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]
Sent: Wednesday, 17 June 2009 8:45 PM
To: bill denheld
Subject: Just A Reminder
Dear Bill, Just a reminder in case you forgot, you're a total c**t.
Looking forward to bumping into you in the street one day! Cheers, Brad
This is an threatening email, to which fellow forum member CaptJack responded kindly twice but his
response was also deleted from this
We are not the offenders but we continue to be intimidated. We
don't need this form of thuggery.
And further the reason for this posting is to draw your attention to last year when
Mr Brad Webb of www.ironoutlaw.com.au denigrates me and others regarding
newspaper reports about Ned Kelly's DNA sampling, Kelly
boots 'burial clue'
Then at http://www.ironoutlaw.com/html/soap_box.html
Brad Webb writes this denigrating paragraph which is supposed to appease
" What is in the water up at Ipswich? And why is this Tully bloke
still a city councillor? Why hasn't he retired after all the millions he
made starring in the movie Kenny? After all, Tully looks more like that
turd-flushing hero than the actor Shane Jacobson does! Yes, Paul Tully
(or Kenny Smyth), is that self-same moron who claims to have Dan Kelly
buried in the local cemetery after his amazing escape from the Glenrowan
siege. Now Tully claims some plot in the Toowong Cemetery holds the
remains of Jack The Ripper. He's so keen to convince the world this is
Mr Ripper (God, it must have been a slow news day when the papers picked
this gem up) that he hasn't even had time to convince himself.
Especially if you go by this quote from the above report, ' I don't
think this is... Jack the Ripper. But it can't be ruled out'. Really?
Next thing you know he'll be teeming up with dear old Bill Denheld* and
going on a two man crusade to remove all those 'pesky facts' from our
history pages. Actually, I can picture their road show, much like
Puppetry of the penis
http://www.puppetryofthepenis.com/ only these guys
won't have to drop their strides for you to see their private parts.
Because Tully and Denheld are two 'knobs' that you can spot a mile off!
* In a recent article titled,
Kelly boots 'burial clue' Bill Denheld claims that Ned Kelly was adopted, because,
now-wait-for-it, some half demented distant relative of the Kelly clan
told him so. Must be true then! " [end quote]
With this sort of denigration, I decided to let visitors to this webpage
know that there are some weirdoes out there . I ask why do these people
use such language ?
And in response to Brad Webb and his denigration, what else could I do
but to 'either' remove his link (on ironicon) or 'inform' the readers of
his editorial denigration.. see
ironicon links page for Brad Webb's webpage ironoutlaw.
Mr Webb now wants us to remove links to his webpage. However it would be a
pleasure to do so, but not before he removes his offending Soap Box
story linking me to his low down misdemeanor.
PS, and also a KC Forum member PaulOK is perpetuating Brad Webb's
intimidation by referring to an incident by an inebriated historian who
prodded me for referring to him in the News Press article as a responsible
historical consultant for the Glenrowan Siege site works stuff up, and
it is all true. Obviously PaulOK and B.Webb are disciples of the eminent
7 June 2009 Kelly's death mask,
Dear Bill, I read your webpage with
great interest. I'm currently writing an article that refers to the
death mask of Ned Kelly, and wish to give a reference to the fact that
it was displayed in Kreitmayer's Waxworks the day after Ned's execution.
Where would that information come from originally? It is often stated,
but I didn't see it when I went through the old newspapers.
Many thanks Anne
Hello Anne, When I first
created the Ned death mask webpage I had all the information at hand.
will refer you to fellow researcher Sharon Hollingsworth in the USA.
Years after my original death mask story Sharon
publish her research at
your questions should be found in Sharon's page.
And further reply from Anne
June 2009 Dear Sharon, and Bill, I was thrilled to receive your
response to my query. Thanks so much for taking the trouble to get me
that information. I am going to see if I can get a copy of that ad in
the Herald when I go the State Library later in the week.
My article is actually a book chapter, and it deals with
a family of touring musicians who performed for a time in Kreitmayer's
Waxworks. Because of a connection with the Kelly Family I wanted to
bring in this reference to the death mask. I'll certainly send you the
chapter when it's published - it may be a while! I have a list of people
who have been very helpful and will be sending them the relevant
sections when the time comes. I'm really grateful for your prompt
assistance, Best wishes and thanks, Anne
June 2009 Feedback Twohuts: illicit distilling
Hi Bill, I am involved in a
whisky distillery start-up in Victoria. Each month I write a two page
whisky newsletter (VVD status, Scottish & American news updates, a
country highlight and some general interest on whisky). I've attached
the June Word from the Valley news bulletin. In the future I
would like to do an historical highlight on Ned Kelly's illicit pot
still at Bullock Creek so I am seeking your learned knowledge on this
aspect of the Kelly's & Co whisky making venture
My research has revealed that Ned Kelly
(plus Dan Kelly, Joe Byrne, Tom Lloyd & Steve Hart) cultivated a
barley paddock of 20 acres for distilling beside the Kelly hut(s). Along
with gold panning it was designed to help to raise funds for his
mother's legal defence after the Fitzpatrick incident on April 15th
1878. Planting must have occurred during the last week of April or
early May shortly after arriving at Bullock Creek circa April 20th
1878, they would have harvested the winter crop in September or early
October. They may have had a faster growing variety; I suspect this is
unlikely too. Or was there a crop had been previously planted by the
first owner/occupant; again I suspect this is unlikely. Cultivating
barley on rough virgin soil would not have yielded no more than 25
bushels an acre, probably less as their equipment would have been
fairly rustic. I assume the ground is not ideal for farming, judging
by the photographs on your site (forested, uneven). The maximum yield
would have been 25 bushel per acre (500 bushels in total). Made into
beer for distilling this would have produced 1,250 gallons of grain
spirit (4,700 litres), under ideal conditions.
It is reported they also used sugar to
fuel the fermentation process, a common practice by illicit distillers
in the 19th century. The stills would have been situated on the creek
to access water for brewing and cooling the condenser coil.
It is claimed they had two stills
so the beer wash was double distilled probably to about 50% alcohol
by volume. Given the sub-optimal growing conditions and their lack of
expertise in distilling I would estimate the gang may have produced
about 2,000 litres during the spring of 78. That assumes they had time
to harvest and distil before they were forced to abandon Bullock Creek
after October 25th police shooting incident. I can find no evidence
that whisky spirit was ever made. Fragments of the copper still have
Do you have any further information on
their illicit distilling activity
- Barley cultivation/yield/usage
- Size of pot still/design
- Where the distilling operation was
- Did they distil spirit
- If they distilled did they sell the
spirit to locals, any record of trade and cost
- Any other relevant information about
Any information would be appreciated
Kind regards Chris Middleton
Hello Chris, an
interesting topic for feedback and the KC 2000 forum. There will be
some who can verify and and answer you question. I do not recall they
ever had a harvest from the (Manglewurt ? )
I can guide you to the site at Kellys creek but cannot pinpoint
exactly where the still stood. I have spent a lot of time there having
metal detected much of the area - but not the crucial places due to
blackberries everywhere. I am pretty sure where the fortified hut
stood as can be seen in my two huts webpages. There are still gold
workings the Kellys would have worked at Bullock ck as it was then
On Valid Links with the past webpage at ironicon.com.au there is a
survey map which shows a dotted area that had been cleared by the
Kellys, but as you identify it seems unlikely they had a big crop if
any at all. I believe it was only their plan to make whisky as a sure
quick cash crop. The 20 acres of ground there would have been a
fertile plot. Bill
Chris's PDF page document - (to be
uploaded soon )
Jack, 28 May
2009 Feedback Twohuts,
Im Jack. Im on my mums email because i
found your email on your site on Ned Kellys death mask. I cheer him on
in my own personal opinion, he wanted to protect his family and he
did. If i was there i would of tried to help him. I dont think he was
actually hung, I think that one of his friends or family took the
blame. Cause he knew it would happen so why would he say "such is
life". Goodbye and hope you can send back Thanks
27 May 2009 Geocaches,
As discussed with you a few months
ago, I have now placed 4 geocaches in the Stringybark Creek area based
on the locations that you have identified - the Kelly Hut at Kellys
Ck; the police camp and the Kennedy spot at German's Creek. These
were placed on Saturday 23 May and they were approved by the
Geocaching.com approvers on Monday 25 May. The fourth and final geocache of
the series has been placed at the historical grave site off Madhouse
Rd just 1 km north of the Stringybark picnic area.
want to see the story that I created around the 4 caches, please refer
to the links below. You will see that I picked the "Fitzpatrick
Incident" as the trigger point to the Kelly Outbreak and the 3
locations that you have identified as being integral to making the
story "real" and "alive". I have also embellished some of the facts
(refer The Kelly Outbreak cache) to fit the aim of the series which is
to find a relic in the final cache which is supposed to be the gun
that Fitzpatrick "lost" at the Kelly homestead (although we know that
that didn't happen)
again, thanks for your assistance and if you ever find that there is
any interference in the area by geocachers, please let me know,
however as a group geocachers are very responsible and aware of their
Peter, the geocaching
at SBC should be able to identify the site of the two old fireplaces -
the true site of the police camp.
Lewis 20 April 2009 Two Huts,
Bill, I am leading a small group
visiting the Stringybark area this weekend, and came across your website
while researching. I must congratulate you on the excellent range of
detailed information you provide. I look forward even more eagerly now
to see this area for myself. Regards,
Hope you and family are well. I have
recently had a look at the Kelly homestead on the Eleven mile creek at
Greta West. It appears to be crumbling back into the earth,
unfortunately. I was also at the Greta Cemetery and was disappointed
at the condition of the grave site of Ellen and Jim. I can almost
understand the current owners of the Kelly homestead, not wishing to
turn their property into a tourist attraction and consideration must
be given to the fact that Anne and her daughter are buried nearby.
But I fail to understand why the graves at the cemetery are not
maintained with headstones or a memorial erected. Do you have any
understanding of the situation. Surely money would not be a reason for
the graves to be in their current unmarked state.
My wife Susan and I have recently
purchased a small property in Taminick. It was part of the original
Rowan brothers selection. We will stay at the Motel at this stage
because the Bank will expect us to repay the loan. I recall from Ian
Jones " A short Life'" that Ned had built a house at the Northern end
of Lake Mokoan, from quarried rock. Do you know if this house is still
standing and its location.
Keep up the good work, your website is
excellent. A constant source of new information.
Greg, there is some speculation the bodies were
not buried there but on their home selections. Maybe someone can
answer these questions?
Cristofani 10 March 2009
Hi Bill, I wanted to say thank you so much
for your site. I'm the great great grand-daughter of Desiderio
Cristofani, whom we believe took a death mask of Ned Kelly. (sent you an
email a few years back).
My 10 yr old son just saw an updated
article by Sharon Hollingsworth - Men of Iron, Men of Wax - that
confirms Desiderio toured with a death mask in his exhibition in early
1881. I can't tell you how thrilled my father is to feel vindicated, as
his father had told him about seeing the original in Desiderio's George
St waxworks. (We'll never prove it of course, unless there is a
signature on the mask. Is yours signed per chance? am thinking about the
possibility of tracing back through modellers if it's possible.)
As a side issue, I've learnt more about
hangings, since the last email. Head's are not necessarily engorged.
They are in strangulations, if pressure is released then reapplied
(blood surges back in to the head during release, as it does if
resuscitation is attempted after the hanging). However, with a hanging,
a constant pressure on the neck can leave little engorgement at all.
Having thought about the theory that
copies were embellished to make Kelly appear more criminal, I can't help
wondering if changes were more due to lack of skill on the part of the
modeller. Maybe it's naivety, but supporters saw him as a hero
regardless, and death masks appear so serene - at least to me. Then
again, propaganda has been employed by governments and leaders for
thousands of years.
Thanks so much for helping put
Desiderio's name on the record. He spoke about 6 languages and worked as
a police translater in his spare time, so he did have ties with police,
again, reinforcing that he would have been accepted into prisons at that
time to take death masks. (as a former Garabaldini soldier, he had been
declared an outlaw himself in Italy so fled to Paris where he learnt his
trade). In that context, suspect he had little sympathy for
Royalty-based authorities and worked with police more for the benefit of
prisoners and suspects)
one last question, Does anyone know how
fluent Max Kreitmeyer's English was? Was he interviewed in newspapers,
for example. Maybe Cristofani translated for him as well, which might
also explain why the pair attended the autopsy together. food for
thought, kindest regards,
Thank you Kathryn I will pass you onto Sharon in the USA for her
Gary Jackson, 10 March 2009
Stringybark Ck 2 Huts
am intrigued by the finding of these two huts, and feel that they
certainly require more investigation. It appears your findings are
extremely important to the history of what actually happened at Stringy
have not been to Stringy Bark Creek, but intend to visit this year. I
guess I am like any person who is more than just interested in Kelly
history, in that I would like to think I was standing in the exact site
where the incident took place. Even if we are unsure of some aspects to
the story, all theories have to be considered. I am very interested in
your findings, and would hope that they would included on any tourist
Whether or not your site as to where the killings
took place is right or not, and the hut findings are the remains of the
huts you believe they are likely to be, I think that what you have
discovered is extremely important, and more probable than not. I am keen
to stand in the places where this event took place and ascertain for
myself your reckonings. I think it is disappointing that Ian Jones does
not consider without bias your calculations.
I am interested to know how you have decided the
exact site of Kennedy’s death. Perhaps you have explained that, and I
have missed that detail. Gary
Hi Gary, Sergeant Kennedy's death site at Germans
Creek can be concluded simply by visitation to all site options 6 to 700
metres NW of the Police camp - and looking at the terrain. In the 130
odd years since not much would have changed as explained on
Regards Gary Jackson
Bruce Fuller, 27
January 2009 , Re - Alice King
Sir, This is not about the huts but a question. The birth
of daughter of Ellen King, (Quinn-Kelly) Alice, does not appear to have
been registered. Therefore where does the proof of her birth date,
etc., come from?
Hello Bruce, here is
reply from Ellen Hollow - ( with thanks Ellen)
"Alice King was not registered POSSIBLY due to the fact
that at 3 days old, born April 1878, when her mother was arrested and
incarcerated in Beechworth Goal. This was the arrest after assaulting
Constable Fitzpatrick with a fire shovel when he molested her daughter
Kate. She was certainly the child of Ellen Kelly / King, and remained
for quite some months with her mother in Goal she was later in the
care of her half sister Margaret Lloyd until her mother was released
from Melbourne Goal.
I would have thought that registering a birth at that
time would have been the last thing on any of the family's minds".
amie Bissot, 8
January 2009 , Burman Photo of Police camp
Hey Bill, my name is Andrew, and I read your
article. I love it. One question on the pictures, wouldn't the
original picture be a negative and with you saying the sun light was
coming from one direction, wouldn't it of actually of been coming from
the other. Just a thought. Great Read.
Andrew Bissot, Birmingham, AL
Hi Andrew, Are we talking about the
Burman photo of Stringybark Creek?
The original was a glass plate negative from which they made contact
We only see the contact print where as the negative would be the same
image except black is white and white is black.
The problem of flipped images is
always possible but one image would not be as sharp with the paper
being a little away from the emulsion side of the negative. We can
only consider the light coming from the sun side in this case Right
side, in which case if the photo was flipped,, then the sun comes from
the left. Bill
Walter Levy from NY, 30 December 2008
- Sidney Nolan and Ned Kelly
Bill: Since Nolan included a picnic as one of the subjects in his two
series of paintings, I wondered if there is source for it. Nolan’s
second bush picnic painting is at the Tate,
London, and I’ve seen it.
I’ve not seen Nolan’s picnic painting for the 1945-47 series. Do you
know where I might find it? Nolan gives some information about the
“On one occasion the outlaws had arranged to have a picnic some distance
Town. The Kelly's
friends flattered the constable and shouted freely for him. He got
pretty full and someone suggested dancing on the green. Good music was
available and Ned Kelly took the merry constable as his partner in a
buck set.” (There isn’t any note for the second series that I know of.)
I’m hoping that there is some more
background. It’s difficult for me to understand Nolan’s painting, and I
don’t want to invent a narrative.
Incidentally, I found a photograph online of Bonnie and
Clyde picnicking, but I‘ve not found an
original source. The idea of outlaws picnicking is fascinating. Happy
New Year, Walter.
Hi Walter, I ran a find search
for Picnic from ' The Inner History of the Kelly Gang' -JJ Kenneally
Nolan would have read this book.
Maybe this paragraph relates to the second image?
Hope this helps, Bill
On Page 106 of JJK's book
; " Supt.
Hare’s evidence gives the impression that the police parties were as
cumbersome as a traveling circus, with all the packing up that had to be
Sometimes the police search parties or picnic parties used to put a
great deal of energy into the tracking of another
police party, and persuade themselves that they were right on the
Glenn Standing ,
19 Dec 2008, Question regarding contable Lonigan
Something is puzzling me regarding
the shooting of Lonigan. I am hoping that you may be able to shed some
light on the subject. Like
most others I have been fascinated, almost obsessed by the stories.
I have 4 books - A Short Life by Ian Jones.The Inner History of the
Kelly Gang by J.J.Kenneally, Ned Kelly The Authentic Illustrated
History by Keith Mc Menomy & Ned Kelly Man and Myth.
According to these the gang most likely had in their possession prior
to the shootings - Old carbine
(tied with wax & string), cheap shotgun & a pocket revolver. ( Ian
Jones) Rifle & a shotgun. (J.J.Kenneally)
We had nothing but a gun & a rifle - According to Ned Kelly.
Jerilderie letter.Steve & Joe were most likely holding sticks to look
like they had guns. Who knows.
From Ned Kelly Man and Myth. Page 136. Statement from George Stephens
who was one of the captors at Faithfull's Creek Station. Kelly told
him: Lonigan lay down behind
the log and rested his revolver on top of the log and covered Dan. I
then took my rifle off Mc Intyre and fired at Lonigan, grazing his
temple. Lonigan disappeared behind the log, but gradually rose again
and as he did so I fired again and shot him through the head. (Argus,
29 October 1880)
In all other accounts by Ned - he indicates that he fired only
one shot at Lonigan.
Mc Intyres' evidence is very inconsistent & contrived but in most it
has Ned firing the one shot at Lonigan. (The fatal shot)
The post-mortem carried out on Lonigan by Samuel Reynolds - stated
that he had 4 bullet wounds.
1 in the left arm.(Passed through the arm)
1 in the left thigh.1 grazed the temple
1 fatal shot into right eye
The bullet in the thigh was extracted and was stated as being an
ordinary revolver bullet.
Besides the eye wound. It was not possible to state that if the other
wounds were inflicted before or after death.
It has been suggested that the other wounds were a result of
stray bullets from the later shoot out. I find it difficult to believe
that the 3 others wounds on Lonigan were the result of stray bullets.
My question is - what was Ned's gun loaded with when he
shot Lonigan? A single ball or grape shot? How can we know for sure?
Hope you don't mind me asking this but it is really bugging me.
Thanks & best regards, Glenn Standing
Glenn, Good one, not sure I know the answer myself?
My knowledge was that Ned had acquired the sawn off Carbine from
Harry Power. It was a Crimean war relic - rifle that shot cone
bullets. It was thought
Ned was a crack shot with it but slow to reload. He also cast the
bullets himself although during all my time detecting Kellys creek
I never found one. I mean one that missed its target. Ian Jones
apparently has some cone bullets allegedly taken from Ned at his
capture, but how would we know? If you look up American Civil war
websites and google ' Bullet ' you can buy any amount of these
What I mean to say is the absence
of finding one, does not mean he did not have cone bullets because
clearly only cone bullets would have the accuracy Ned reputedly
had. A few years back a Shepparton hair dresser detecting at
Stringybark Creek found a large bore cone bullet which I saw. According
to McIntyre, Ned after firing the shot that killed Lonigan,
whipped out a Colt pistol from behind his back, - perhaps this gun
hit Lonigan in the left arm, or it may have been that Ned first
used his colt pistol at Lonigan grazing his temple, then fired
again hitting him in the arm, and then the fatal shot from the
carbine? I thought the bullet in the thigh came from Lonigan's own
Joe Byrne was reputed to have had an old Large bore muzzle loading
shoot gun - ( I have found several very large balls at Kellys
creek,) I think if I was to accompany my mates to check out the
police camp I would have taken it myself. That may account for
what JJ Kenneally wrote. Remember JJK being a friend of Tom Lloyd
would not write the boys were loaded up with guns and probably
kept the Colt out of it. Anyone could buy a Colt at the general
store in those days. With thanks,
10 Dec 2008 from England
In early September I watched, here in England, the end of the
Ned Kelly film featuring Mick Jagger - mercifully I had missed most of
it; the so-called Irish accent was atrocious - however it did get me
thinking that I knew nothing about Ned except a vague picture of a man
in a tin hat! Mid September I
was in Australia and tried to find a biography. I had no luck until
leaving from Brisbane airport when I managed to pick up the excellent
Ian Jones book. I thought
that Ned was shot dead, not hanged, and obviously had no idea of his
mutilation. Thus on searching for 'Ned Kelly skull' I came across your
site which I found very informative.
So, thanks for adding a bit to the story.
Regards, Terry Davey
Lola Rowe, 4 Dec 2008, Feedback
Bill I am passing the news on that my Mother the wife of Thomas
Patrick LLOYD, passed on to her reward in heaven on Wed. 26th. Nov.
and a great celebration was held on the Tues. 2nd. Dec...She had
great memories of Thomas Peter Lloyd etc... which now leaves ME.....
Dear Lola, on behalf of all the readers, please
accept our condolences, Bill
28 Oct 08 Feedback Twohuts
Dear Bill, I am a blacksmith, armourer etc. I have always wanted to
make Neds’ suit of armor. I have agreement from the state library of
Victoria for the project and many many photos. Also I have a print out
from the State Library giving me dimensions etc of the suit. I am
unable to find any where, what weight Ned was. I have his height. The
helmet made at the moment in “mock up” appears to show a portion if
his head at the top. (Depending on where one looks at from) I can only
conclude that his head may have been smaller or flatter. His feet were
very small, which makes me wonder about the rest of his physical
appearance. Any help from you would be gratefully received. Thanks
for reading thus far. Des Wakefield. Tongala Victoria.
Des, Speaking to Gary Dean the other day -
at age 19
Ned was 13.5 stone and 5 foot 11 inches high.
Some pictures of your project would be great. Bill
Lisa, 15 Oct 08 Feedback two
Hi Bill, Your website is really great & interesting as always.
:) I've always really liked reading little tidbit type things about
the boys & I like in Thomas McIntyre's narrative, how he talks about
watching Ned in the yard at Beechworth Gaol (just before the
Beechworth trial) where he says how Ned waved to him when he saw him &
then how he got a bucket of water & was using the reflection to look
at to comb his hair & beard. Then how he said that for nearly the
whole time Ned was in the yard, that he just sat staring at the water.
I've just always thought that sounded really lovely, but sad too, to
think of Ned being there at the goal all by himself. It's a nice
little tidbit to read about him. :) Yours Sincerely, Lisa
Thanks Lisa, we have spoken before.
it is interesting to focus on Ned the isolated man locked up for a
month without support. It was all a set up to keep him out of
circulation till they worked out how to charge him having been being
declared an outlaw? but when pending elections on the way - parliament
had to be dissolved and by that act Ned was no longed an Outlawed man,
and should have been trialed as a civilian. Bill
|Craig and Joh 12 )ct
08 Feedback two huts
G'day Bill, You were so kind as to
send me your Stringybark Creek maps at the end July this year. My
family visited a number of sites in Kelly country and have put some
of the photos online. I'm hoping you might be able to confirm the
locations - particularly those of Stringybark Creek. Cheers
Dave and Pat Burge, 10 Oct 08
Hello Bill, We are from Pt. Pirie, S.A. and are very interested in
the Kelly story. We are planning a trip in about three week's time to
the area and would love a site map of the Stringybark Ck. area. Your
whole website is fantastic and we have spent hours poring over it. In
fact we keep going back to various parts to re-read! Regards
Robertson, 5 October 08 Feedback
Dear Bill, MY husband and I went to
Stringybark Creek today we have been trying to find this for many
years, after finding this place we were both upset that all that was
written was the story everyone hears about the police being shot, we
are always told Ned was a murdering thug, but what drove this young
man to his path in life, Years ago I was introduced to a lady at
Beveridge her name was Dorothy and she was the owner of the Kelly
house, which was located across the road from her farm, at this time
the house was not as bad as it is today, Dorothy's very good friend
was a solicitor Keith Allen from Avondale Heights years went pass and
Mr Allen disappeared after working late at his office which was in
Military Road, after his disappearance his Mercedes was found
abandoned, as he was very interested in Ned's life, Dorothy or her
family fenced this house at Beveridge off, my husband and I think more
should be found out about everything to do with Ned and his family,
did they really live at Beveridge and then moved to Avenel where his
father Red Kelly died, then was it right they then went to Greta where
his 1st encounter with the police was holding someone's horse outside
of a Hotel and was charged with stealing it, what happened to Ned's
sister who was pestered by the policeman, we understand that some of
Ned's relatives still live at Greta, do you know were his other family
members are buried. As he is our Robin Hood, and people should know
everything about them and the truth yes it was sad these
policemen died, but how did they know where they could be found, did
someone inform on them? what ever happened to the real armour and as
they were not Blacksmiths who and where was it made, Yours Sincerely
Jacqueline Scott- Robertson
Thank you for your feedback, it is
indeed an interesting story and you raise a lot of questions that
we hope to find answers for. Many part answers are out there.
|Tony and Heather
8 September 08
G'day Bill, we admire what your doing,
Ned is certainly a icon to many Australians, I being one. Keep up the
good work,regards Tony
|Greg Kirk 10 August
08 Kelly Creek Tree,
G'day Bill, Having had a look at your site
again I came across two photos you have listed as being of the Kelly
Creek mill site, well Bill I believe you have it wrong. The photos are
of the first mill site, why? the sawdust heap is far to big to have
been the one at Kelly Creek and the buildings to large and numerous.
Having visited both sites on many
occasions over the years, and having been in the presents of Herb
Waters who guided me on the first occasion, I feel very confident in
saying you have them marked incorrectly. Thus it could not have been
'the Kelly Tree' as you have marked the tree. Anyway Bill I look
forward to your reply. Regards, Greg Kirk.
Hello Greg, Thank you for
your thoughts on this a very interesting subject.
I presume you refer to the first as being the Toombullup mill?
According to Bill Stewart who showed me the Kelly creek mill site in
1985, said the Kelly target tree was still standing after the mill
was closed down (1930's). He also showed me the remains of that
Kelly tree log laying in the creek below, and pointed roughly where
I also remember him and others saying the Kelly mill was a roughly
built structure unlike the Toombullup mill. I base my conviction of
a Kelly Creek Kelly tree photo (as shown on my Kelly creek
webpage) on a series of photos from the Engelke family private
collection. Charlie Engelke let me scan all of them. In amongst them
was one photo ( not taken with their camera ) of a sawmill site
with snow covered sawdust heaps - first thought to be the Toombullup
Careful comparison reveal the photo print is different from the
others, meaning this photo was not taken by the same camera or part
of the Toombullup series.The
Kelly Creek Saw Mill was roughly built not as straight as the
Toombullup mill, One photo, Kellys creek mill is looking up the
gully at the mill, the other looking down hill at the mill.
The Toombullup mill pictured ( that preceded Kellys Ck) shows no big
dead tree standing where it should have been according to Bill
Stewart. With thanks,
please note, I have communicated with Greg with pictures soon to be
uploaded. See webpage - -----
|Lyn 4 August 08
Just wanted to comment on what a fantastic site you have, I don’t know
how you can call yourself an amateur researcher. Could you tell me if
anyone has looked for the caves? Regards Lynn
Thanks Lyn, by amateur we really mean un qualified
and un paid. The caves finding quest is still on the agenda but there
has been so much happening of late it will have to wait, Bill
|Patrick G Byrnes 28 July 08
Feedback two huts.
Wasnt there a part of the armour
found in a stump at one time is this true. i wrote a 1400 page book on
wagga in the 1980's it cost me $100 toprint it and in it it has my own
ned and dan kelly story. i keep in touch with nell johnson, donnald
johnsons widow i do have her daughters email address. from the book
horseman bold as i am page 140.pat byrnes shore sheep in nz in the 30's
and shore with a man by the name of grey hart he was related to
steve.joe byrne born 1857 , he was 4 yrs older than dan. he was the son
of paddy byrne a gold digger.joe born woolshed. paddy byrne wife maiden
name margaret white mother of 6 kids 2 boys 4 girls joe spoke chineese.
i have a christmas card given to my grandfather at mulwaila from the
station owner mr whitty on terramirra station as grandad share farmed
for him and also mr cross. whitty was on holidays in tassie at the time
i wonder if he was whitties brother that had it in for the kellys. paddy
byrne ie joes father was born 1834 in county mayo ire margret nee white
was 17 he paddy was 22yrs old, there were 7 byrne children.also there
were two other byrne families in the district. joe and 7 other children,
pat, dennis,john, catherine,other byrne in district one been an uncle
and other a cousin. mrs byrne was 3 months preg when pat died aged aged
35yrs in 1869 when m joe was 12yrs old.john delainy who would sell
newspaper at the railway station, gave ned a drinkout of his water bag
when he was shot as the delainys were kelly sympathisers. you can also
contact sister ursla gilbert a nun at the yarrawonga convent. it was her
mother whose parents locked the kellies horse in their barn and gave the
fresh remounts it was her mother also that told me dan and steve were at
bulluck creek hut 3 days after the seige. i was going to tell you
something else but lost it out of me head for now. i have a tape from
nell johnson recorded from ernie mcpherson stating the man he worked
with on the hp mcoy station cubbie who used the name of jack day was in
no doubt in his mind was the reasl dan kelly a horse breaker. regards
pat b if my car is fixed i will be at the ned kelly fest on sat at
beechworth. only had it 2 months and has a sensor problem i told them i
dont want it back until its fixed.
We will await input from others who will be very interested on all this
great information. Bill
Gary Maxwell 28 July 08 Feedback
Hi Bill, I just have to say well
done to you on the excellent job you're doing on the Ned Kelly
website. I was absolutely fascinated with the pictures and
explanations of Ned's death mask and its replicas, also on the "E.K"
Winchester and the "Kelly Campfire". I'm a 23 year old lad from
Ireland, Dublin originally but living in Galway city now. I'm really
into Irish History, from the days of Wolfe Tone to the Easter Rising
in 1916, I also love reading and hearing stories about Jesse James,
Bill The Kid and most of the other American outlaws from the 1800s.
There was an article in the newspaper the
other day about Ned's fathers home house in Tipperary, Ireland. It
said something along the lines of renovating the house and taking some
pieces of the original structure over to Victoria, Australia and
setting up a small memorial site. Have you heard anything more about
this? Also have you heard anything more on the "finding" of his
skeletal remains last March?
After reading that Steve Hart's mother was
originally from Galway, I've decided I'm going to check up his
ancestry and see if there are any relations still living here and try
and get as much information as possible from them. Anyhow, keep up the
great work on the site, really looking forward to reading new finds
and facts. Gary Maxwell Eire
Thanks for that Gary, we will look forward to
any news on the subjects you raised. Bill
|Patrick G Byrnes 26 July 08
Feedback two huts
Bill regarding where the armour was made,
Dads auntie told me before she died around 1980 that it was a relation
of the Byrne girl or she was married to the blacksmith not real sure
now but the blacksmith was definitely a relation of the Byrne girl (I
think she was married to him) In the weekly times it states it was
made from Lennon plough sheers as they were of the greatest quality .
One day i will give you some full details:
1: the lady that fed Ned Kelly in the
Beechworth jail name was Ada Day when she died a spinster she had the
paper work to prove it. her brother and sister did not value it and it
went to the tip.
2: 3 days after the siege Dan Kelly and
Steve Hart were sighted at Bullock creek hut by the locals, but would
never put them in.
3: the Kellys practiced their shooting at
either the Bungeet west School or church i cant remember now. To find
it there is a large sap bung in the gum tree and they fired their
guns/pistols at this for shooting practice.
4:another one of my relatives by the name
of tom walker (his wife was my great grand mothers sister on dads
mothers side) He used to leave soup on the gate post for the Kellys
over devinish /St. james way.
When he moved to the darling downs in 1910 he met Dan Kelly at the
Dalby horse sale and used the name of JACK Day. He refused to
acknowledge until Tom told him to take his shirt off and he would
prove he was Dan Kelly as he hit him with a styrup iron outside of the
dance one night and put a scare on him, after this they had a long
talk and his son heard him say your secret is safe with me Dan, when
he came home he said to his family you would never guess who i met up
5. The Kellys frequented my great
grandfathers farm at St. James and hid in his crops. My grandfather
Frederick Byrne knew the whole gang personally. They would see Kate
Kelly come out with supplies for them . If the troupers were coming
they were always pointed in the wrong direction.
6. The Kellys horse were changed over and
hid in the Doyles barn, They were given fresh mounts and returned to
swap their horses back over again. (doyles wife was a hart but from
Bungendore in NSW.) these are all relatives as the Delainey also
married into our family also.
7: The Frederick Byrne's property (my
great grandfathers) name was Lingerlonger at St. James he died in
1905.and was right along side of the railway line. tennants only set
fire to the homestead about 20yrs ago or less as it was still
8.A pony showed up on their property and
after 12 months my grandfather decided to ride it to town and on the
way home Steve hart came out from behind a tree and wanted to know if
he wanted to sell the pony, he told him the story how it just showed
up and by the look on Steve's face he knew he left it there and had
forgotten about it, the next day the pony was gone.
9. Mary Cord went to school with Ned Kelly
and her grandaughter only died two years ago in Wagga, she was related
to the Malones who also married into the Delainies. that should keep
10.Dad always told me that his father said
Dan Kelly got on to a boat to America?
11. The gang were all decent people but
Steve hart could not be trusted.
three Byrnes brothers arrived in Geelong
about 1847 (we were Byrne at one time) from county dublin ire his
father name was John Byrne and his mother Ellen Boshin but not an
Irish name? and were county Dublin farmers . Frederick was Bourne
about 1830--32 if i look at Joe Byrne he has the distinctive Byrne's
nose lone and narrow, granddad said we were not related, but how would
he of known as, the other two unknown brothers who could not read nor
write lost one another never to make contact again and we don't even
know their names . we were Byrne's in 1862 when Frederick married
Ellen Downes at dunned (mount Morriac) but Joe Byrne's nose is the
same as ours. Regards Pat Byrnes,
Thanks Pat for sharing your interesting
Joe Byrne as depicted in Ian Jones's 2003 book. Do you have any
knowledge of descendants of the Byrne families?
This is interesting stuff.
Some others have contacted me about Joe's face on various photos and
wonder if all images are in fact Joe Byrne?
One photo attributed to
Ray Kirby in I.J's book ?. Do you know who this person is?
I am sure many
readers will read with great interest your valuable knowledge base.
Calling Ray Kirby, can you
please reply to us at feedback?
Darren Cook 22 July 2008 Maps Ned's Birth
Hi my daughter is doing a school project & is after a map of ned's birth
place, grew up. (I'd suppose same area), bushranger, captured & died.
Would you be able to help us? Thanks, regards Darren Cook.
Darren, I tried to send the maps but
was unable to deliver send me another email?
Lynn 4 June 2008
Ned's Lover and the watch
Hi, I feel almost obsessed with Ned
Kelly. I honestly believe like thousand others that he is innocent and
only guilty because of the police and their treatment he had no choice
but to defend himself and his family. What I really want to know is the
romantic side of Ned. Did he have someone special? Was he ever in love?
What was Ned like other than what we have been told. My Great
Grandmother told me a story of her in school and watching a group of 3
horsemen ride past, as they past one of the horsemen nodded to a child
whom then replied ‘Good afternoon Mr Kelly’ my great grandmother was
then told that it was Ned Kelly and his friends. Regards Lynn
It is a great
story we all want to get close to and your family story is all the more
interesting. If you go to my site www.ironicon.com.au
down near the bottom is a link Bailup .com , if you click on that and go
to Home page down the bottom is a link Marriage.
This is an
interesting read regarding the romantic side. Interestingly when we
found the place where Sergeant Kennedy died at Germans Creek, I could
not help thinking about his watch taken by Ned. Ned said later what is
the use of a watch to a dead man? The return of the watch by an alias
named Madella ( I think) may prove he did have a love of his life
because it was returned later to the Kennedy family during the 1930's.
With thanks, Bill
11 May 2008 Uncle Owen
Hi Bill, I stumbled across your site while searching out the Laffans
from the Wallan area, i am yet to read through your site fully, but
i am sure that will happen in the next couple of weeks... Why i am
contacting you is that you have a reference to Owen Laffan (Craigieburn)
Owen, or Uncle Owie as we knew him, has passed away, i am not
certain of the date/year that he passed on but it has definately
been in the past 18 months or so. Also, his daughter, who's name i
do not know, passed away around 8 to 10 weeks ago, March/April 2008.
I send you this information incase someone is trying to find him re
the verification of information as listed in your feedback
page...With Kindest regards Lisa J Laffan Cobram, Victoria.
Thanks Lisa, We are all sorry to hear
your uncle Owen has passed away. It was marvelous for him to have come
out on that day, when a small group celebrated Ned Kelly's 150th
birthday in the shadow of Mt Fraser back in 2005. Owen at the age of
94 was our closest living link of knowledge - able to point us in the
right direction to identify Ned Kelly's birth place near the little
hill. We are not glorifying bushrangers,criminals or murderers with
the Ned's 150th, it is just that the whole Kelly story and the
politics behind it is a distortion of our history. With
Dear Bill- After a recent visit to Nth
Eastern Victoria - (I think it is God's own country by the way!!)- I
have become fascinated by the Kelly story and loved your site with
detailed maps and discussion- thanks. I note your debate re the
Stringybark Ck site orientaion with ian Jones- having just read his
book- wasn't sure what the latest on this was. Also could you advise
on any work re the sychology of Kelly- being a GP that interests me
a lot. Also whilst reading Kelly
materila I cannot get a map that is deatiled enough to locate eg
Elevn Mile ck or Wombat ranges in deatil- can you advise?
Parker ( Berrima NSW)
There is no doubt
where the police camp was - re the finding of the two old fireplaces
that pin point the camp.
As to orientation of the photo by Burman of the ' police camp shoot
out site' there remains a conundrum,- are we looking south west or
south east? but the weight favors SW. Either way North is still from
the observer's point of view by my deduction that the shadows
indicate where the sun was.
According to Ian Jones the four gang members marched into the police
camp together between the trees behind where the men sit on the
fallen log. And remember the gang had to cross the creek which is to
the right in the photo. When McIntyre wrote his description of the
he is contradicting himself if the Burman photo is printed the
correct way around.
If you go to Google Earth and type in Eleven Mile Creek Victoria it
will take you there. If you then go to Google Maps and type in same,
- then you can get an overlay map. The best map to get for the whole
area is Nat Map 8124 - this has all the locations north of
Mansfield, Tolmie to as high as Benalla and Greta West.
Re the psychology of Kelly? It is a
great shame we only get history from the winners, but there was much
more to the man than just a criminal murderer. Having
strong evidence of Kelly being linked to the movers and shakers that
pushed for a Federation, one wonders what other revelations will
come forth in future. see
Ned and the Federation links. One book you should read is Alex
Castles Ned Kelly's last days. This more than any other book touches
on the drama from a legal view point - and in my opinion one can see
how the the whole saga was whipped up to make the authorities look
From Chez 25 April 2008 Charlie
Hi Bill, I am trying to find out about a man named
Charlie Brown, who was meant to have run with the Kelly Gang, my
mother was a Brown and has recently been told that Charlie was her
Great, Great uncle, and that he was the brother of Howard Brown, who
was her Grandfather. It would be great to find out more information
about him if he was a member. Chez
Lets see who knows more about Charlie Brown.
23 April 2008
Stumbled across your site quite some time ago, I congratulate you mate,
it is the best reference yet. I was interested to note that you are a
sculptor. I am an artist also, with a love of Australia and our
heritage, Ned Kelly has always been a hero to me. As a small child ,my
parents spent a couple of years at Glenrowan, I was only a small baby
and have no memory of the town then, Over the years I have painted Ned
and sculpted him in bronze.
There is a painting of Ned on my web site, that I refer to as my
favorite work. Naturally I have visited many sites where Ned had been
over the years I have heard many stories from people with some sort of
connection to his family. The Strickland family were Kelly supporters as
you would know.
For a few years I lived at Evendale Tasmania where Red Kelly spent some
years, and was lucky enough to visit the building in which he was held,
before it was burned down. There is a cell under a pub there, on the
same block of dirt. For your interest I have found that One of my Great
grandmothers was Louisa Head, she married a Cunningham in Cambelltown
Tasmania in the 1800s.she was from the same town in Ireland as Ned's
Grandmother of the same family name.
Strickland is my adopted name .My great great grandfather was Denis
Cure, a convict from Ireland, transported in 1843. I wish you all the
best with your efforts and hope to meet you someday. Cheers Wayne
Thank you for sharing with us us your works
John Schilling. 10
Subject: Ned Kelly - German Jindera Blacksmith connection - VIC NSW
Hello All, I
relate the story passed down through my family from my Dad's mother of
her Father's involvement with Ned Kelly. Some new information has been
Grandma's family tells the story that Great Grandpa Kuchel used to shod
Ned Kelly's horses while a blacksmith at Jindera on the NSW/Vic border..
My Great Grandfather was born on 03 September 1862 so was only a very
young man when he allegedly knew Ned Kelly. In 1879 he would have only
been 17 years old but already a competent blacksmith.. Johann Friedrich
Kuchel had recently moved from Springton in South Australia to the
German community at Jindera in NSW near the Victorian border. His
brother Carl was later the teacher at the Lutheran school there.
We have long considered the possibility that Great grandpa may have been
connected to the manufacture of the suits of armor as he had a wicked
sense of humour and probably had little allegiance to the authorities
due to his ethnic background, his age and his newness to the area. This
cannot be verified. I have actually examined one of the suits of armor
in great detail having photographed one once and I can testify that
there are no makers initials on the armor (chuckle).
I was lucky enough to be commissioned to photograph Joe Byrne's armor by
the owner QC Hammond of Canberra. During this process I was allowed to
wear the armor and in contrast to the comments made elsewhere on Bailup,
I can testify that it would have been relatively easy to aim and shoot
either rifle or pistol while wearing the armor ( I am competent in both
disciplines), but I cannot testify to the ease of loading or unloading.
This may have been difficult.
On page 219 of Ian Jones's "Ned Kelly, A short life" ISBN 0
85091 801 4 by Griffen Press, a story is related "as heard in the area
of Winton North, by Joseph Ashmead, an acquaintance of Ned's. This
reference lists the maker of the armor as being a foreigner who had been
working in the district, was a good man, and never failed to attend
Johann Friedrich Kuchel's first language was German and my Lutheran
ancestors were fastidious about attending church. It fits together
nicely but the armor connection cannot be proved.
Great Grandpa left the Jindera region at the end of the 1890's by
Bullock wagon never to return, eventually making his home in Western
Australia. ( I still have the wagon).
I trust that this oral history (it has been published since 1970 in the
book "Kuchel 1838 to 1970" Mitchell Press Pty Ltd, 257 West
Beach Road, Richmond, SA 5033) will be of interest to researchers.
Regards, John Schilling Canberra
I don't think it matters whether it can be
proven or not, you have oral history. I can believe your connection
entirely also because of where the gang were living in relative safety
at the time.
7 April 2008 Re Your website
Dear Bill. I am emailing you as I have just been reading through
your website and intend to visit it again soon.
I would like to say that I enjoyed it very much and would really like to
visit these areas that you talk about. I currently live in Melbourne
and I have visited The North-East Victoria many times. On occasion I
have visited certain areas relevant to our common interest in Ned
Kelly, however after reading through your website maybe I haven't.
Over the past five months I have spent many hours researching and find
that the conflicting information is sometimes hard to fathom.
Regards Lesley Wright
Tonia de Launay, 5 April 2008
True sites relating to Stringybark Creek
Dear Bill, Thank you for your great interest and dedicated research
into the Kelly outbreak. I am a fellow traveler, albeit merely
an intensely engaged person who wants to know the facts behind the
legend; and I have only lately had time and little money to pursue it
through reliable publications and Kelly country itself. The later is
so important to understanding facts on the page. Just to roam around
the Woolshed valley, feel the type of terrain, and then to have the
much mediated experience of driving to Glenrowan still gave
me some feel of the ride that Joe Byrne and Dan Kelly made on the
night of the Aaron Sherritt's assignations. Next time with more
time I'll try walking it as I think my riding days may be over. Bill,
I would very much appreciate your sending me the detailed map for
Andrew Miller 1
April 2008 Ned Kelly Death mask.
Dear Bill, I would firstly like to congratulate you on your continuing
success with this website. I have greatly enjoyed returning to it and
viewing it over the years.
The main reason I am
contacting you is to inform you of a observation I made when looking at
the picture of the death mask in the Keith McMenomy’s Ned Kelly :
the authentic illustrated history. If you look at
the lobe of his left ear you will notice that there is a small crease.
This suggests to me that at some time he wore an earring in this ear.
Next time you get a chance look at a person with their earring removed.
I once had an earring and have the same mark as they never close up. I
know it’s not of major importance to the overall story but I think its
adds a little extra detail to his overall appearance. I have looked at
all of the pictures of Ned and I can see no sign of an earring but this
is not to say that he didn’t wear one at certain times. I also found it
exciting as I hadn’t heard it mentioned before. I am not sure
whether earrings were fashionable during the period but I bet Dick
Turpin wore one. What are your thoughts on this?
I was also wondering if
you have ever heard what happened to Ned’s horse music? I read that it
appeared at Ned’s side during the siege but have not been able to
conclude what its ultimate fate was. Kind Regards, Andrew Miller
An interesting observation Andrew. Perhaps a
reader may add Music to the ear -
7 March 2008 - Re Alison Mc Kridy's
The following might be of interest to Alison as it lists the Gormans who
came out on the William Metcalf in 1839. There were ten in total but
sadly two daughter died at sea (Margaret Gorman aged 4 and Judith Gorman
aged 1). I assume that Mary Gorman the midwife is on the list.
You will note that a Mary Skinnack is listed
as being on the William Metcalfe - probably the same Mary Shinnik that
Alison refers to. There may also be an error as there is a Mitchelstown
in Ireland but no Michael Town.
Interestingly, you will note that a
Patrick Cahill came out on the William Metcalfe. A Cahill from Bendigo
was instrumental in the Federation of Australia, but his close associate
Sir John Quick dominates the history books. Wonder if it is the same
Cahill family that accompanied the Gormans on the William Metcalfe.
Marcus, interesting connection- Patrick Cahill coming out on the
same ship as the Gormans, then also the Federation link with John
Quick. Knowing that Alison Kridy's family ancestors were raised by
the Gorman family, and that EJ Gorman was foundation member of the
Federation branch Berrigan. It would appear these connections are
no-coincidence, they are all tied together,
Hello Bill, My interest is in regard
to the Gormans when they were living at Springvale Farm. My great
Grandmother, Johanna O'Brien, her sister Margaret and brother Daniel
were fostered by David and Mary Gorman from 1854 until about
Dan O'Brien became famous as the racing personality who owned Carbine
and bought him to Australia not long before his win in the Melbourne
Cup. Dan learned to ride and manage horses while living with the
The Gormans were relatives of the O'Briens
but I haven't been able to establish that connection. Their O'Brien
children's mother's maiden name was Shinnick. An aunt, Mary Shinnick,
came out on the 'William Metcalf' with the Gormans in 1839. The
Camerons may have been another connection.
Would it be possible for you to pass this
e-mail on to the David Gorman, or one of the other descendants of the
original Gorman clan, just to see if the have any knowledge of this
connection/association with the O'Brien's? Kind regards, Alison
Dear Alison, interesting your records coincide
with the time the Kellys and the Quinns and possibly the Gormans left
the district Wallan East. I will pass on your email to David Gorman by
mail as he is not on the net. All the best in your pursuit. Bill
|Kevin Samuel 15 Feb
2008 Terrific site Bill, Your passion is evident in the excellent
presentation of your research, and to us amateur Kelly buffs, it is a
treasure of information that just keeps fuelling the fire. We travel
over once a year, and stay for a week or so to explore sites and places
of significance re Ned and crew, and always seem to go home with more
passion for the subject. Its good to have people like yourself
that do all the hard work for us!
Best Rgds, Kevin
Barry Thomas, 29 Dec 07
SERGEANT STEELE AND THE MOYHU PROTECTION SOCIETY PRESENTATION SWORD
Dear Bill, The existence of this sword has only just come to my
attention. Do you know who owns it presently?? Our Ben Thomas of the
Antique & Historical Arms Collectors Guild's website is a researcher
into the early Melbourne gunsmith James Rosier and knows of the sword
(retailed by Rosier) but has never seen it. There is an excellent
article in this for the Guild's magazine "Caps & Flints" (I should send
you some copies??) if we can gain access to it. My knowledge of this
sword came from another Guild member, one Gordon Byrne, who knows
something of the ownership history of the sword. Gordon has written an
article about another sword and only mentioned Sergeant Steel's sword in
passing. I pricked up my ears because I know Ben is an ardent
researcher - I'm about to print his article on Rosier the Man's personal
If you're not aware of it, James Rosier figures large in the 19th
century firearms history of Victoria. I hope you had a relaxing and
enjoyable Christmas, and can I wish you a Happy New Year. Best regards,
Thanks Barry, I will pass this on to Bruce’s
KC2000 forum to see who can add information. Bill see
27 Dec 07
for Ironicon Feedback .
Sir, I found the site very well researched and well thought out, you've
obviously put in lots of research and are to be commended for such. I'm
afraid that as a Pom, I cant add anything useful to you other than
encouragement from afar. I did recently visit Australia to visit
friends, but unfortunately did not get a chance to visit Glenrowan,
although it must be said that I was not encouraged to do so, due to
being told that it was "a bit Disneyland in its approach". Although
since my return to England, I've found your webpages and wish that I
had. Oh well, I have promised myself a return visit to your country, and
be certain I will visit the area and the places mentioned in your pages.
thank you very much for your marvelous work and very informative
webpages. I wish you every success. yours D Gibbon East Sussex England
Being discouraged not to visit Glenrowan is a sentiment we hear often.
We all agree Glenrowan needs to lift its game if it is to attract world
visitors. There has been town ‘beautification’ works in progress for the
past 18 months and it is hoped the new Ned Kelly Centre to be built
there won’t be a theme park. Bill
David Fedley 10 Nov 07 Re Constable Lonigan
Dear Bill, I am 66 years old and my grandmother told me when I was a
child that Constable Lonigan’s son stayed at my grandparents house.
They said that he was not a very nice person. Their house was in Rae
Street, North Fitzroy, Melbourne. Would this be possible? As I have
often wondered. They were only matter of fact about it and have passed
on many years ago. If you would be kind enough to reply I will be more
Yours sincerely, David.
It would be interesting to make contact with
descendants of that son. I believe there is always truth in handed down
stories and wonder what the family could add. Bill
Hollingsworth in the USA 29 Dec 07
Bill, regarding Constable Thomas Lonigan's son staying at the home
of David Fedley's grandparents in Fitzroy, I would like to mention that
Justin Corfield in "The Ned Kelly Encyclopedia" states that Thomas
Lonigan had 4 children (3 daughters and 1 son). The son, Ernest Henry
Lonigan, was born at North Lancefield in 1873 and died at Fitzroy in
1929. So, it may have been entirely possible he spent some time at Mr.
Fedley's grandparents' home. Cheers, Sharon Hollingsworth
Peter McGarrigle. 9 Nov 07 Stringybark Creek
Dear Bill, My family and myself have discovered in the last 2 or 3 years
that my grandfather (who was adopted) happened to be a distant relative
of the Kelly clan. I am in fact the Great great great grandson of
Thomas Lloyd and Jane Quinn. My dad who happens to be intrigued by
new found family tree has visited all the Kelly sites over the past few
years and now I am heading down with him on boxing day to also visit the
sites. I was wondering if you happen to have a map of Stringybark creek
pinpointing the most likely area of the shootings? I know it a bit of
the beaten track but would love to visit the actual site, would be
awesome. What ever information you could provide me would be much
appreciated . Peter McGarrigle
It would be really cool to discover family
connections to members of the Kelly gang.
Hope you enjoy your visit to Stringybark Ck. Bill
Steve Headly 28 October 07 Stringybark Creek & Environs
Hello Bill, Congratulations on your website. Excellent research. I have
been a student of the Kelly era for over thirty years. I have visited
Stringybark creek on numerous occasions and the geography never did feel
right – I was in the wrong place! I would be very interested in the map
you mentioned on your website. My details as provided.
Hi Steve, the problem is always to allow
serious students access to the real historic sites without them first
asking for it. Everyone who wants to know should have the right to do
Rowe (Lloyd) re NED'S HEAD 28 Oct 2007.
Bill, reading messages on
your feedback, particularly from Nick Reynolds.
Pleased to see you pointed out to him, we do not need, his "CONS TO
ICONS" putting Ned on the same level as Chopper. As
my Dad always started his explanations off with the words
" It is never right to take the life of another" BUT .......
I do think Ned was on a different level than Chopper. Thanks. LOLA
Thank you Lola,
The whole notion of setting side by side the good and the
bad is downgrading the good and remains a dilemma to me. However I
am not opposed to Ned being in
the exhibition he proposes.
Any publicity to lift Ned to iconic status for the right reasons is a
good thing for Ned and Australia. Bill
Bryan Vornstand in the USA.
22 Oct 07.
I have heard the name Ned Kelly in the past, but just recently actually
found out about him. I am reading up on him and what a story. I am
trying to sort out the facts from fiction. I just saw the movie, I
didn't even know there was a movie, it just happened to be on, and am
sure a lot of it has been glamorized. Your website is great.
It is a real thrill to learn more about him. His story has reached
America. Thank you.
If there is still a piece left of the target tree, I would much
appreciate it as a keepsake.
Most of the pieces are gone but I still have some. Australia has a young
history but Ned Kelly seems to be intertwined deeper into the Aus psyche
than most want to believe. Bill
Gerard Oxley 9 Oct 07 Stringybark Creek
Bill, I have recently come across your "Two Huts" website and
noticed your offer to provide a detailed map of some of the real
historical sites at Stringybark Creek. I plan to visit the area around
the anniversary of the shootings and would very much appreciate a copy
if you could send it to
me at --------
I haven't had the opportunity to go through your website thoroughly,
it looks very interesting.
Thank you for your efforts which I'm sure are a labour of love
anyway. Regards Gerard Oxley
|Nick Reynolds 25
Sept 2007 NED'S HEAD Hi there, I was wondering if you knew how I
could obtain a copy of Ned's head, I'm in a band called Alabama 3 and am
coming over to Australia for a small tour. Whilst over there I plan to
cast the head of chopper read for an exhibition I intend to do in the
future entitled "Cons to icons" and obviously would love to get Ned
if possible- by the way what did you use for reference for your sculpt-http://www.denheldid.com/twohuts/story10.html its really good? Interesting theory about the neck, by the way.
all the best Nick Reynolds
Hi Nick, there are only 24 known
to exist of Ned and I have a last
one. The real face of Ned has been my work based upon the very first
cast taken. It is held by the Anatomy school at a Melbourne
university. They ended up with it because it was thought there was
something to learn from Phrenology as it was called.
If you can find one for sale they fetch a big price, I paid a
good sum for my copy and I am unlikely to be casting any from
it. However, in future and for an
exhibition we could discuss this further.
Nick, in Australia we revere Ned Kelly who was more a freedom fighter
that lost against the British autocracy. To portray Ned with the likes
of Chopper, a real criminal who willingly professes
to have killed people is not a good idea. Only people or organisations
who do not know their history make references to Ned Kelly as a
criminal thug murderer.
I would be interested to know how you can set side by side the good
and the bad without being offensive to the good? These are my
PS PS I do not know your music but your website looks great. Can I get
to hear some off the net? Bill,
In reply Nick
sent this explanation
Nick Reynolds 26
September 07 . Hi Bill thanks for your reply, I'm amazed that so
few casts were made considering the cultural significance of Ned
Kelly. I'm well aware of Ned's status, and what he stood up for, and
what he represents, but from what I believe, he may have had morals
and a good heart- but he was no angel!, and he was involved in the
killing of three policeman ( they may have been oppressive colonists,
but they were still killed).
My interest in this begins with my
father who was Bruce Reynolds, credited as the mastermind of the
Great Train Robbery,( funnily enough had it not been for the fact that
he got beaten up by police for having no lights on his bicycle as an
evacuee during the war, he probably would never have become a
criminal)The sheer audacity of the crime, and that it happened at a
time when the British people had turned against their government due
to the Profumo affair- led to the robbers as being seen as folk
heroes, especially when sentences handed out to the robbers- 30 years
each,( when life for murder was only 25 years), had the nation
This resulted in the train robbers becoming symbols of the working
class against the government. Now I know that some of the robbers were
career criminals and Ned wasn't, but that isn't my point. as an artist
I'm more interested in how people reach iconic status especially the
process in which criminals become romanticized, and what it say's
about us. In no way do I wish to try and make a comparison between Ned
and Chopper except the one you have made.
My point here is that, there is a whole load of good reasons for why
Ned is looked up to and he has earnt his position of reverence, but
what about Chopper? what does it say about the Australian psyche
today, that he also has celebrity status and a younger generation
think he is cool, yet he was no freedom fighter- just
a charismatic criminal ! And not just Australia, his appeal as played
by Eric Bana has given him cult status, even in the UK. In fact we
have our own Chopper, his name is Mad Frankie Fraser ( where do they
get their names!)
In 1998 I had an exhibition featuring
life casts and one death mask of Britains most notorious criminals. I
got into a lot of trouble, mainly from the villains themselves. Those
who were not violent felt uncomfortable being alongside those who
were. Those who had a moral ground didn't want to be beside those who
didn't. Those who had done big crimes didn't want to be next to a
lesser criminal etc. What they missed was that were there ,together,
purely for one reason, and the title of the show explains, Cons to
These were all people who at one time were vilified in the media and
by the establishment, only the process of time, an autobiography or a
film, was needed in order for them to be feted on the celebrity
circuit, and become house hold names. This is the age of celebrity,
people are worshipped these days for the strangest reasons- worthy or
unworthy, I believe this phenomenon can be seen as a cultural
barometer and shows how our social morals are changing and how
nowadays we tend to overlook things that don't fit, in order to make
I'm no advocate, as Marshall Mc luhan said, artists are mans early
warning system, you could say that my only message is, how did it come
to this! And the answer to this, is what the show is really
about...The irresponsibility of the MEDIA. They build them up,
sensationalize them, and give them the oxygen of publicity, without
accepting the message this puts out. Be a villain with an unusual
sobriquet, write a book, have a movie made about yourself and if you
can make people laugh, who cares if you've been a naughty boy.
Now I hope I have explained how the good can be seen alongside the bad
(without taking away or adding to anothers status) Its so we can
contemplate the difference. While we're on this subject I'd be
interested in what you make of Ronnie Bigg's especially as he spent 30
years sticking his fingers up to the British establishment-
incidentally I cast his head for the show ( see attachment) and I hope
to re run the exhibition in a year or so with the addition of some
international faces. The last time the exhibition ran, catalogues of
the show were sold in the National Portrait Gallery, and created a lot
of media despite me pointing the finger at them.
As you may be aware I am a member of
Alabama 3 which is a cult band whose music is used to introduce the
Sopranos. We're doing the Australia tour virtually for nothing, more
for the publicity, but who knows perhaps by Nov my luck might have
changed, either ways its been interesting being in touch with you,
through sculpture we are kindred spirits.
As for the music you should be able to get some stuff off the net. I
think someone is trying to set up a distribution deal for Australia- I
could always email something to you if you're interested, however only
4 of us are coming to Australia ( alabama3 acoustic and unplugged) as
it's not financially viable for the whole band. Why don't you come and
see us, we're playing Melbourne,
Sydney and Adelaide sometime
from Nov 5th........until then all the best Nick Reynolds
PS; By the way, the painted
cast of Ron is entitled "Who breaks a butterfly upon a wheel" as
despite being partially paralysed, unable to talk, and suffering from
the result of 4 strokes and showing signs of Parkinson's- he is still
locked up in a maximum security prison, costing the tax payers money -
all for a small time crook who dared to cock a snook at Blighty! and
his part in the robbery was minimal, he didn't even set foot on the
Train. Not that I'm drawing a comparison, but its interesting to note
that Ned 's last words were the same as my Dad's when Scotland Yard
tracked him down after 5 years. I'll have to ask him if he was aware
Thanks Nick, Your email is
eloquently put. There is a lot of stuff there.
You make a good case to explore the
Cons or Icons .
There is obviously a case for wider discussion on this topic. It is
vexing how seemingly bad men are turned into heroes - con or icon
One thing regarding Ned
as seen as a cop Killer though, it seems killing is acceptable if it
is part of political struggle. Regarding Ned and the Federation of
Australia, a recent link made by myself and fellow researcher
Maikel Annalee, Ned has never been seen as a political freedom
fighter because the authorities have written the history books. Just in case you had not seen this please see the
article at -
Nick Reynolds 28 Sept 07.
Bill, thanks for your reply, and the article was interesting- and I
could add the old saying, one's man freedom fighter is another mans
terrorist, but to be honest, and I didn't make it clear before , I
always regarded Ned Kelly as a heroic figure, whether he had
political conviction, or was just standing up for himself against an
unfair regime. Even Mick Jaggers portrayal, didn't sway me! By
the way, that must have been a buzz,
on discovering the shed realizing it was where the gangs
iconic armour was made.(
link) Do you like Sidney Nolans work on Ned? all
the best Nick
PS; If you check the guardian
online there's a piece about me casting the 402nd man to be executed
Nick, How did you get to cast the
402nd Texan executed? Have you got a link to the Guardian article?
I am not keen on Sidney Nolan's art. I have been to a major
exhibition where most of the Kelly series was shown all in one row
but have to say they are remarkable. As a painter he is too crude
for me and for the time 1956 ( there abouts, he made himself with
Robin Hood if he ever
existed was a terrorist but perhaps today we are redefining the
always to do with politics, and I always say a politician is
an apologist for someone else. When there is no other way you
either buckle under or resort to other means. If it becomes
violent we can call it terrorism or an uprising or an over throw.
The British Monarchy were terrorists themselves too.
PS, If you have time perhaps I take you to the 3 sites at
Nick Reynolds 28
September 07 Hi
Bill, I don't quite know what our schedule is as we don't have a
lot of time in between
gigs, plus we have radio and TV in between but should there be
time I'd be more than interested checking the sites out. When I
lived in Melbourne I went to Glenrowan and remember a rather
shabby robotic Ned theme park, bits were good but overall it was
very tacky! Anyway try this address http://arts.guardian.co.uk/art/visualart/story/0,,2177971,00.html
All the best Nick
Nick, What an amazing story. Keep us
all posted, regards, Bill
Russell Dwyer 8
Dear Bill, I have been an avid reader of The Ned Kelly tales and after
reading all this stuff about finding the fireplaces I think its truly
remarkable that after all this time its still such a mystery. I do think
that people like yourself need to be thanked and acknowledged for your
commitment to finding out more about this historic Australian era.
I would love to have a
site map of where to have a look for myself at these spots. I live in
(or close to) what they call “Kelly Country” and would love to take my
kids to a truly historic Australian site. Kind Regards Russell .
PS, Do you have any knowledge of the Kelly gang spending time in the
Russell, No doubt Ned spent lots of time traveling through adjoining
areas to where you grew up. As a gang I doubt they came near the
Maybe some of the readers will know the answer to this question?
Lindsay Frost 2nd September 07
Hi Bill, Firstly, thanks for the
outstanding research! I have spent many hours reviewing your findings. I'm
a North Easterner and have always been fascinated with the history.
I was born in Euroa into a family that has
lived and worked in the region for generations,
My father was a bee keeper in the
district, as was his father, and HIS father before him. My father and
his brothers traveled extensively throughout the North East during the
30s, 40s, and 50s. They planted the Poplars in Avenel, lived in Lake
house in Chiltern. I still have relatives in Wang, Pechelba, Euroa,
etc , etc.
I was brought up on tales of the district,
and have always had a fascination with the Kelly history.
Specifically, I have been intrigued by the time lapses between the
major "events" in the Kelly history, and have thought about what the
Kellys were doing between them. I think that's where the real history
- I went into the Euroa Bank when it was
still the bank.
- I have forebears that were Harts from
Eldorado (I think I am being optimistic about any link).
- I visited Stringybark Creek and saw
what I guess must be the second tree (the blaze referred to Lonigan).
I have a picture of it if you're interested.
My father talked about seeing trees the
Kellys used for target practice. I always thought this was at the
homestead at the 15 mile, until reading your web site. I now think it
may have been at the Kelly Creek site. They ran bees throughout the
I would love to visit the Kelly Creek
site. As I understand it Dan & Ned spent several months there. It's
where the "gang" really started. And it puts a threat perspective
behind what are otherwise excessive actions at Stringybark Creek. Are
you able (and prepared) to give me information of how to find
Best regards, Lindsay Frost
Dear Lindsay, an
interesting email. The time lapses you refer to intrigue me too.
Their occupation at the 'Hut behind the School' at Bobinawarrah filled a gap of
6 months -
I believe the thinking behind
the Republic, the armour and the drafting of the Jerilderie letter was
Leone at the North Bourke Roadhouse
19 Aug 2007
In regard to the questions asked about the
death mask, I think that we need to know if Ned hung for any amount of
time, or was executed and cut down immediately. This would contribute
to how he looked after death. I don't believe the neck would look
longer and thickened. Just the tongue may protrude and appear thicker
than "normal". Again, it would depend on how long he hung for. Just
providing my opinion from brief medical knowledge and a keen interest.
Dear Leone, I do not know if Ned hung
for any time? His head was removed and a cast made the same day. So, I
presume he did not hang long.
Hollingsworth in the USA. 19 Aug 07
Dear Bill, hope you and Carla are doing well. Wanted to see if you had
heard about a new Ned Kelly book that is out. Brian Stevenson had run
across the title on a library database and asked me if I was familiar
with it but I was not. I googled and found a website for it. You might
be interested in the preface they have on the site that mentions the
huts and Bullock Creek and so on.
Thank you Sharon, its all too obvious my theory
has been exploited for financial gain. My two huts theory has been on
the net for the past 4 years for all to read. I read he had been to the
area accompanied by a Kelly Historian? Maybe that was me? In his
Resources /Bibliography References he has my two huts Kelly creek at the
top of the list but no mention of my name or work.
Gary Dean, 2 August 2007 Dear Bill,
Have you seen Stephen McCarthy's book Ned Kelly - The Widow's Son. I
got a copy on Friday and only got a chance to have a look at it last
night. He spends the first part of the book looking at the location of
the two huts at Bullock Creek, quite a bit taken from your web site
story on the subject, as well as others. I don't agree with all he
says, but would be interested in your comments. Gary
Thanks Gary, - a belated reply, Nothing but Plagiarism with a capital
14 Aug 07 Dear Bill,
Your reaction was as I expected, that is
the main reason I let you know about it. He said he had only seen
your site about May when his brother told him about it, but he has
used too much material I believe for this to be the case. Gary
Clint anderson 18 / 6/ 06 Hi Bill,
Very interesting to read your story and how people may have been
misled to the wrong site of the shootings. I have only become
interested in the Kelly story in the last couple of years and have
become deeply fascinated with the whole thing, starting from the
Quinns property in wallen east which he may have been born in and not
Reds first block up on the hill at Beveridge.I am hoping to look at
this site soon.
I would also like to look at the Kelly
tree site with the benefit of your maps. Any information I would be
thankful for. Kind Regards Clint.
Maps as sent.
|Kris Townsend, 15
May 2007 KELLY WANTED POSTER
Hi Bill, Am wondering if you know much about the Kelly wanted
Am having a shocker of a time trying to find out about these - we have
one - have have it looked at by a art historian and all that he can tell
us is that it is 'very old' to give you an idea of what it looks like -
it is on page 132 of Keith McMenomy's book Ned Kelly The Authentic
Illustrated Story - it is exactly the same plate - have heard all the
stories of fakes an copies an such, we would really just like to know a
bit more about this piece.
If you can help or point me in some direction I would be most
Hello Kris, some Wanted printing plate
fragments turned up last year sometime.
No doubt you may have an original but the fakes have been discussed on
the KC 2000 forum. I do believe the McMenomy example is our only yard
stick for easy access. There are several in the PROv and the Police
Historical Society would have some too. May I ask how you came to own
the one you have? With thanks, Bill
Bill, Thank you for your
prompt response! I agree that McMenomy is the yard stick for easy access
- have had no luck with any other way... I have attached a pic of the
one we have - Col bought this one at an Art Auction in country NSW in
the very early 80's.It is now to the point that we/I have become amazed
at the lack of direct answers from library/museum etc - are they worried
about saying the wrong thing?Any ideas? Cheers Kris
Kris, I have had a look at the jpg
image. What do you want to achieve in your quest re the wanted poster?
to have it authenticated, to sell it, or do you just want to keep it as
a curio ? Bill
Kevin Vallence 30 March 07
Dear Bill, I have a dear friend (Japanese) who is something of an
expert on Ned Kelly
I received this from her recently and I
wonder if you are able to enlighten me.us about the connection between
field police and McCormic (sic) Coincidentally I was re-reading the
Kelly Gang by J.J.Kenneally, when I received your email. Quite often
the same book gives the different angle of seeing things from what it
did years ago, or allows me to acquire deeper understanding, maybe
because hopefully I have grown up after long thinking.And of course
because there are cultural barriers. An example of a couple of weeks
ago, behind the conflict between two halkers in which Ned was
involved and eventually sentenced six months, was caused basically,
according to Ian Jones's book, by Ben Gould hatered against McCormic,
who had been a convict constable or 'field police' p.61,p.354.I was
wondering what it was, then came to an old memory that men in charge
of collecting levy from miners in gold fields were called field
police. Am I correct? I will be pleased if you tell me about that.
Like man ohers, I am very impressed by your web site and will forward
details of it to my Japanese friend. Kevin Vallence
Any answers on this question anyone?
27 March 007 Feedback Native Ned
Hello, My name is Roxanne Epps, you wouldn’t remember me but I have
contacted you before and gotten a copy of your Stringybark Creek map,
and asked you a question.
Can I please ask you where you got the information for the NativeNed
article that you wrote on Ned’s birthplace? It is great, and me and the
Kilmore Historical Society are trying to find out more information about
the Gorman family and their connection to the Kelly story. We figured
you probably got the information from either the Gorman or Kelly
thanks for your assistance and your website is great as well. Regards,
Thank you Roxanne,
Recently we have
the assistance of
a lovely old gentleman -
Mr David Gorman, a direct descendant of David Gorman who was neighbour
to the Kellys at
East Vic. He is helping correct some
involved. Because the
startling to some,
it will probably take some time for acceptance of the notion that Ned
un-wittingly played a part. Ned aimed for a republic, and got a
Native Ned webpage is still a
work in progress.
We invite any assistance with further research to be added,
from family members. Bill
28 May 07 Feedback
Hi Bill: I thoroughly enjoyed your comprehensive website. I found it
while doing research on a museum exhibit I am trying to develop--about
parallels between California and Australia (particularly Victoria). My
vision is to have the exhibit travel between CA & AU. One subject I am
exploring is the similarities and differences between the CA Robin Hood
heroes/anti heroes (both real and fictional) like Vasquez, Joaquin
Murietta, and Zorro, and Kelly.
Having seen your 3-D
mask of Kelly, I now feel like I've seen him in person--that was totally
If I get anywhere with
the exhibit (funding is a big concern), I'll get back in touch with
In the meanwhile,
I'd like to assure you that glass plate negatives get flipped all the
time. Sometimes it happened when the images were contemporary, and
sometimes it happens in modern reproduction. When glass plates were in
use, there were no enlargers, so contact prints were the norm. It's very
easy to make a flipped contact print. A few years ago, I served as the
archivist on a project involving reproduction of about 600 glass-plate
negatives, and found that the vendor who reproduced them flipped about
50 or so of them. Cheers from Monterey, California, Esther Trosow
Thank you Esther, I can’t get more support for
the notion that old images can get flipped, looking at the last few
feedback. Look forward to news of the exhibition re Outlaws. Bill
Fay Johnson. 26 May 07 More on reversed images, -
Dear Bill, Just a couple of additional references for you:
Books: "The Mechanical Eye In
Photography 1841-1900", by A.Davies & P.Stanbury. Oxford University
Press, 1985. Page.42:
Ambrotypes and Daguerreotypes are inverted by the camera to form a
mirror image. This is of little consequence in portraiture, but a
problem with street scenes, as all signs are back to front. This
reversal was overcome by the use of lens inverters * or in the case of
Ambrotypes, by simply turning the plate over and viewing the image
through the back of the glass. Being unnecessary, the protective cover
glass was omitted and this resulted in a physically weaker unit, prone
"Sydney Morning Herald", 24 September 1853.
And the following -
"Dating Family Photos, 1850 - 1920", by Lenore Frost, pub. 1991. p.14:
Types of Photographs -
DAGUERREOTYPE, 1839-1860: .....They have a
distinctive mirror-like appearance so they have to be held at an angle
for the picture to be seen properly. The figure is shown in
mirror-image, so that married women may appear to wear their wedding
rings on their right hand.
...... The glass negative was backed with black, giving a positive
image, which like the daguerreotype, was a reversed image......
Thank you again Fay.
25 May 07 Early photos reversed.
Dear Bill, I thought that you might be interested in an extract from
reminiscences titled "Stories My Mother Told Me", written by Mrs
Emmeline Smith (nee Hurst), who was born in Beechworth in 1885. I found
this unpublished 14 page manuscript while cleaning up my study the other
day. Emmeline was the grandmother of a friend of mine. The story begins
in 1853 and Emmeline writes about stories her mother told her - of their
arrival in Melbourne
in 1853 and of the early days in Beechworth. On page 9, I found the
following: "The first portrait gallery was
owned by a Frenchman named Rochlitz who did a great trade in the old
Daguerreotype style. He would take your portrait and mount it in a
case lined with velvet for £2/2 and you would find that the
gentleman's hair would be parted on the wrong side and the flower on the
lady's dress would be on the wrong shoulder."
Do you think that she is indicating that photos were being produced in
reverse ? According to my files, Julius Albert ROCHLITZ operated as a
photographer between the years 1854 - 1858. I think that , from memory,
Rochlitz was Hungarian, not a Frenchman. Being "reminiscences", you just
have to take it at face value, but I thought you would be interested.
Best wishes, Fay Johnson
Thank you Fay, You have provided some proof of
image flipping. Seems images were reversed as a result of the
Daguerreotype process. Bill
Daly, 30 Nov 06 Some Feedback
Dear Bill, I would like to let you know that your site is the best one
I have come across for the Kelly's. Congrats on a great site. Kellie
Alan Rooks, 26 Oct
06 Where is Ned ? -
Hello Bill, I have read many publications about Ned, but i have heard
3 different stories relating to what happened to his body. One
indicates that his body was sent to be studied by medical students,
another said that his headless body is in the walls of the old goal
still and another said he was buried at the old goal and then dug up
and sent over to Pentridge. Also why do they say the armour at the VIC
state library is Ned's when it has D. Kelly scribed on the inside of
the backplate? Isn't Ned's at the museum? Thank you very much. Alan
The study of Phrenology ( head measurements ) popular at the time as
a pseudoscience, claimed Ned's head. I understand his the body was
buried in the little cemetery yard at Old Melbourne Gaol until around
1930's when renovations were required at the site. I believe the graves
and the headless bones of Ned were then reburied at Pentridge Gaol at
Coburg in unmarked graves. Much anger is currently expressed by the lack
of respect for all the graves there- being all overgrown with weeds and
unkept amidst the now privately owned fashionable Pentridge precinct.
Re the armour, - for years nobody was sure which piece belonged with
which,- hence any names marked relate to the previous matches. It was
only recently that SLV and Police Historical Unit (who possesses Dan and
Steve's suites) decided with the help of Kelly historian Ian Jones, to
re assemble the suites according to best match ups. We believe this is
all now correct, but the previous markings remain. Bill
Essex. 11 October 2006. Bobinawarrah Hut site -
Well done to all the team for this brilliant new find. Must have been
so exciting when you finally uncovered it. Was really interested to
read about it as many of my Simmonds rellies lived in the Moyhu area &
a few crossed paths with the Kelly gang. Sure I'll be taken to see it
when I next visit Australia as I'm 4th cousin of Marcus Swinburne, and
I guess a very distant rellie of the McAlieces as well, so nice to see
their pictures. Keep up the good work! Hazel, Essex, England
Tim Parker, 9 October 2006
Barry Thomas recently
referred me to your excellent website. I am indebted to him for that
but much more so to you for the wealth of information it contains. Thank
you for going to all that trouble -
wish I knew all this when I first visited the site with my boys some 30
years ago !
Fay Johnson 30
Dear Bill, I was speaking to Brenda Leitch of Wangaratta yesterday and I
gave her details re. your web-site. Brenda wrote a book called "The
Fatal Dice" - Lifting the lid on the cause of the persecution of Ned
Kelly, in 1993. I don't know if you have heard of that book, but it is
another angle on the Ned Kelly story. I think it is out of print now.
was going through some of my mother's music sheets the other day and
came across a manuscript - words by Ron Bywater & music by my
grandmother's brother, Will NORRIS - probably in the 1920-30's. It is
called "I never did anything wrong", a humorous song. It starts off
..... "They call me a second Ned Kelly, but I never did any-thing wrong.
I've rustled some horses and busted some banks - but I never did
any-thing wrong"..... followed by the chorus and two other verses. As
far as I am aware, although it states "now being prepared for
publication", this manuscript was never published. It is amazing what
you find when you are looking for something else.
Researching & compiling our BURMAN family history is slow, for they took
so many photographs of other events, as well as Stringybark Creek,
Glenrowan and Benalla etc., but I am uncovering lots of interesting
bits & pieces just the same. Hope this finds you well. Kindest regards,
Thank you Fay, Do you have any idea whether
the Burman 'postcard' series that were published at the time could have
been printed back to front? Some researchers are suggesting the
processes used would not allow flipping ? The question arises especially
with the Kelly hut photo taken by 'Stewart'. I have claimed this has to
be flipped over because the way it is shown in Mc Menomy's book, it does
not add up. See link to the Kelly hut http://www.denheldid.com/twohuts/kellyhut.html
Q, Do you
know anyone who we could ask regarding the 'glass' plates that were used
to create the photographs and the possibility of reversal? Bill
This flipping question was first raised by Ian MacFarlane, see 4th
August (down below)
Warren Trick ,
August 29, 2006
Hello there Bill, it's a while since I've written to you and I thought
I'd drop you a line. I've finally collected all the helmets, they
look wonderful together and never fail to arouse conversation. I know
I'm a Kelly nut and it never fails to amaze and sadden me sometimes, to
hear how little people know of that important part of our Australian
history, our social history of that era. If only a film was made of the
real people involved, unembellished, factual, the story of the
struggling families, from Ned's birthday around the time of Eureka
to the finale in Melbourne November 1880. Everything is there drama, by
the barrow load, comedy..If you couldn't get a chuckle out of the lads
antics at Jerilderie you've lost your sense of humour. The story
stands on it's own, one day it will be told..
Just a thought, Steve's helmet. It has a wider vision "slot" than any
of the others, yet the depth of the helmet is the same as Dan's, as I
look at your models I wonder if Steve was just a bit shorter than Dan
and when the helmet was being made and it rested on his shoulders
without the face piece, the smithy (Tom Lloyd?) found it necessary to
position the face piece lower than Dan's, so as not to impede his
vision?. The bush smithy, whoever he was, wouldn't be bothered about
lowering the helmet by chopping bits out of the sides so that it rested
lower on Steve's slight shoulders, and his head further up into the
helmet, the obvious adjustment would be to lower the face piece, hence
the wider vision slot? Just a thought I've had for a while now.
I'm always reading and re-reading through your marvelous ICON site Bill,
you're to be congratulated on detective work and the sites presentation.
best wishes, Warren Trick
I have had the same thoughts regarding Steve and Dan's helmets. It is
known that Steve did not like the metal pressing to his face and maybe
too claustrophobic -hence the more open slot? There has been some
discussion on the KC 2000 forum of late regarding similar matters. Bill
Tom Thompson Aug
What a great site,
Dear Bill I continue to research the various scrimshaws on this matter
and am interested in getting a copy of the KELLY GANG by G Wilson Hall.
Any details appreciated. Tom Thompson (Publisher)
Thanks Tom, Two ways to get a copy, State Library of Victoria as a photo
copy you can order, or see Australian History Promotions a link. Brain
Mc Donald sells his for about $30 while I got a copy from SLV for $13 ex
postage. Brain's copy is transcript from the Michelle library in NSW,
and is the best copy. Bill
Mel Helminski 25 August 2006
at story 10
Hi Bill, In response to your internet query for help on the 1866
I can't tell by the picture if the gun is a Carbine or a Musket. A
Carbine would have a saddle ring on the left side of the frame and a 20
in barrel whereas a Musket would have a 28in barrel and no saddle ring.
It is most likely a Musket as in that period Winchester was actively
trying to sell Muskets to countries as their primary firearms. I know
that they sold Turkey 20,000 to 30,000 and Peru more than that. It
would not be to difficult to repair that gun depending whether it was a
Musket or Carbine cost wise. I'm quite familiar with the 1866 as I have
been collecting them for years and have 14 or 15 engraved ones. The 1866
Winchester was not used in the Civil War as the war ended in 1865,
unless you are thinking of the Henry. If you give me the Ser.#, I can
tell you when it was manufactured.
The reason I was
perusing the Victorian site was to look for someone interested in
purchasing an 1851 Navy Colt with Thomas Butlers name on the back strap.
He won the Victorian Cross in the Crimean War. Lots of gold and
platinum inlay, I have pictures and full history of medal and gun, too
bad I don't have the medal. Sincerely Mel Helminski
the brass block
was nick named Yellow Boy, is that right?
17 August 2006
Dear Bill, I was just checking out the "nativened" section of ironicon
and noticed your ‘codes’ offer. I am familiar with Walnarring etc and
have believed for a long time that Ned would have been born either at
his grandparents home or at his parents first home on the same property.
It's about time people got it right about where he was born and realise
that it's not just all about Glenrowan. Regards, Elaine
Dear Elaine, The Arrowsmith block is now
within Camoola property. This property is bounded by the road that runs
from Beveridge to the
Road. If you go to where the old Beveridge Station was, ( north of the
road crossing) and if you look east you will see Camoola homestead where
the Gormans lived, and where it was thought Ned was born. Mr.
Arrrowsmith had the block from the station down to Merri Creek and
Merriang road and was a square mile up to what is now Wallnaring on the
Quinn's homestead is on the Wallnaring property.
Ian MacFarlane 4 Aug 2006
Subject, Were the Burman photos flipped?
Hi Bill, Your site continues to expand most interestingly. As to the
possibility the Burman photos were 'flipped', I think the history of
photography indicates this was not possible then. Subject to correction
from your goodself, positive and negative plates could not then, I
think, be 'flipped'. Being plates - rather than the positive and
negative films we know so well today, which can easily be printed
back-to-front - there was only one way the process could turn out, a
negative or positive image of the original plate.
Glassplate negatives could, I suppose, be reversed. But this kind of
photography was largely confined to the studio (I think). Well known
Victorian archival researcher Faye Johnson is a descendant of Burman,
but I suspect she knows little about the technologies he had available.
Hello Ian, Thank you for your insight into
early plate photography. It is interesting the possibility of
flipping could not be achieved? I only presumed the creation of
'contact' prints which early photographs were- meant that the negative
could be flipped. After a plate is made, the printer, unless there was a
mark on the glass frame would not always know left from right unless
there was text in the image. Then, photos with obscure content would
never be corrected unless it became necessary- as in our case of
orientation at the creeks? The problem remains, as clearly the
Kelly hut photo in Mc Menomy's book could not have been taken from the
East (as the sun shadows reveal North), and hence the camera must have
been located to the west on the only high ground from where that
picture could be taken. What do you think? , Bill
PS, This should be a question for KC 2000forum ? In the mean time here
is a link to a photography forum where the question is asked-
I have been in touch with Professor Keith McMenomy regarding this
Kellys creek - Kelly Target tree. I have some log fragments from the
Kelly Target Tree recovered when the only remaining log* butt was
salvaged from a Kellys Creek soak by ' Friends of Ned' and Department of
Sustainability and Environment during Jan 2004. See Newsupdates story
are some 40 odd fragments that came from a lump of the target tree
here offered only to Ironicon / Twohuts feedback
This is a once only opportunity for Kelly fans to acquire a tiny - but
true ' Kelly Gang relic'. Please contact me to register your
interest and include your postal address. There is no charge for the
wood, but the cost for packaging and postage are to be covered. Est. $5
Each fragment is numbered and can be viewed
here to view )
To help show a provenance for each fragment of the wood, there will be a
PDF document emailed to you to printout yourself to accompany the
The general order of pieces offered is from largest to smallest. ( first
in best dressed) At the time of registering your interest, you will be
notified of the next numbered piece available. Bill Denheld
PS *, This target tree log is probably the same target tree
marked on a Survey map dated 10 /3 / 1903, see Sheila Hutchinson's great
site ' Valid Links with the past'
to see the 'Kelly target pept ' tree marked on the map. pept =
Around the Kelly camp of 1878 there were many target trees, however when
sawmillers came into the area they did not show much respect for chopped
Kelly target trees. In fact they would have thought them ruined trunks.
125 years later, this last target tree remnant only just survived
because it served as a boundary marker.
At 'The Kelly Creek Kelly tree' there are pictures of a
Kelly target tree 1930's, 1956, 1985 and Jan 2004.
An actual picture of the Kelly camp shows two chopped target trees
circa 1883, but this wood is not from those trees.
who has contributed to this feedback in
the past and would like a Kelly Target tree fragment give me line. Bill
Peter Carter. June 30, 2006 Dear Bill, Thanks very much for
sending the information and maps of Stringybark Creek to me the other
day at such short notice. The trip was very good and I enjoyed the
Stringybark Creek area immensely. I think I found the police camp and I
found Kelly's hut site, thanks to your info. I didn't find the fire
places or Kennedy's resting spot, I was really pushing it with 2 young
children along side. Anyway, thanks for making Stringybark Creek one of
the more memorable Kelly spots for me, more so than Glenrowan was, it's
more like it was. All the best.
June 26, 2006.
Hi Bill, Having recently visited your website and found information
about the two huts at the creek, and also having recently visited
Stringybark Creek and Powers Lookout, I would appreciate information on
how to visit the actual sites.
In reference to authorities
updating information about the site, I feel that it should
become public knowledge that there were buildings in the area and that
the Kellys had at some time used them. Thanking you, John
Jason Granzien, 24 June 06 .- G'Day Bill. Great web site. I
have only just found it. I have been studying the Kelly Gang since I was
10 now almost 38. Back in March 06 my wife and I visited Kelly Country
and loved it. I am hoping to be in Beechworth in August for the Kelly
Debate. I have collected Kelly replica things all of this time. As they
are all replica's if there are pieces of the real Target tree left I
would be grateful to have one. Once again keep up the good work.
Cheers and XXXX Beers, Jason
Morris. 3 May 2006
Dear Bill, For a number of years now I have been concerned that the
"official" version of where Ned Kelly was born seems to be Ian Jones'
version. Then recently I came across your version on webpage NativeNed.
I was so relieved to discover that the information you have presented is
just about exactly the same as the information I have been able to
I have a friend who lives near me here at Markwood, his name is Bernard
Mooney. Bernard's family inherited the Lewis' property at Beverage and
he told me many years ago that a Mrs Johnson said that the Laffans'
believed that Ned was born exactly where you have marked on your map on
that small hill. Also about 1912 Mrs Stewart said to Bill Lewis that the
Kellys lived in Lewis's house in Minton St Beveridge and that they never
lived in her (Mrs Stewart) house. Owen Laffan is still alive living in
Craigieburn may be he could verify this information.
Recently I gave this "new" information to Ian Jones but he would not
have a bar of it and wouldn't even consider cross checking it. My
grandfather employed the Kelly gang, including Dummy Wright, on his
thrashing machine before they became outlaws. But that is another story.
I would be very interested to know if any of this information cross
checks with your version. Also Bernard Mooney said that he would be very
happy to talk to you about this information. Kind regards, Rick Morris
you Rick and Bernard, That little hill is so small you would have
trouble building an Outhouse on it. Our searching over the area revealed
no evidence of any major building ever having existed there. Owen Laffan
accompanied our search and he did remember seeing the remains
of building rubble closer to the Quinn property on the other side of the
Merri creek North from the little hill. When we found the remains of
a dwelling fireplace in the opposite direction and a dairy/ stable
floor in a wide area searched, we took notice of that as reported.
Whereas the area that Owen pointed to revealed very little. However, we
believe the higher ground commanded by that fireplace location as our
best bet of where Ellen and John Kelly built their *snug little hut. (*
as described by G Wilson Hall in 1879). We believe Ned was born at this
location as the midwife Mrs Mary Gorman lived only next door, and
therefore no need for Ellen Kelly to have given birth on the Gorman's
Scott Duncan 24
April 06 Dear Bill, Thank you very much for the details you sent
me some time ago. It made the task of finally locating the two huts
site very easy. I have to say, as an avid Kelly reader over many
years, that your research and enthusiasm for the subject is mind
blowing. You bring to life long forgotten elements in the story that
were in danger of being lost to time. With another trip to the north
east on the cards in the not too distant future, I'd love to make
another trip to the Kelly's / Bullock Creek site. It's been some
years since I last visited. On that occasion I was on my own and
didn't have the benefit of research you've since done on the subject,
so I'm not entirely sure that I was in fact at the exact location of
the huts there. Is it possible to email me any details or location
information similar to the information you have on the two huts site
that may make my trek through the bush to the Kelly site a little
easier? Once again, keep up the fascinating work. There are many
thousands of people out there that appreciate your efforts enormously,
and are very eager to hear of any further developments. Best regards,
Scott, You need to follow the sawmill track on foot
since the DSE decided
for all of us that we can no longer drive to the end of the track.
Problem now is the blackberries will make walking very difficult.
Another track may need to be created that will allow people of all
ages to get to the site by vehicle.
However, on the map I have provided a GPS reading to mark where the hut stood.
When you intend to go drop me a line and I will draw you another mud
Mike Hayes 20
Good afternoon Bill, I have been picking my way through your fascinating
stories on your website and find that you’re happy to advise on the
correct location of:
the huts (and gun battle) on
the huts on Bullock (now Kelly) creek;
the site of Kennedy’s demise on German
Like you I find it
astounding that these sites are not easily accessible to the public,
given that they are presumably on crown land. I believe that the
existing site on Stringybark creek with police monument and “Kelly” tree
should be reconstructed to its more accurate site 300 metres south.
I was in the district
several weeks ago trying to locate the Bullock creek hut site but
failed. I then enquired at the Tolmie Pub about its whereabouts etc and
was given your website which is why I’m now emailing you regarding maps
to the sites. If the maps could be emailed then that’s OK as it would
save you postage or would you require a stamped addressed envelope sent
I haven’t finished
reading all of your website’s articles as yet but look forward to doing
so soon. However, after reading of the proposed Kelly centre
construction at Glenrowan I am most impressed with its siting and
makeup. I hope you get it through the authorities.
Perry, 10 Mar 2006
Good Afternoon Bill.
I have been trawling your website for some months now.... Hearty
congratulations. It’s excellent. I have been a student of the Kellys
for 25 years now with no signs of waning. Having found your site makes
me think outside the traditional “Kelly Square.”
Having a small piece
of target tree gave a strange feeling.- One I would like to capture
more often. Thanks again. Hope to speak soon. Mark.
Thanks Mark, Re that strange feeling, - you can read all the history
you like but there is nothing like history you can still touch. I
thought it very worthwhile to save the old log for prosperity and
share the crumbs rather than let it all rot away.
Doug Brockfield 23 Feb 2006
Hi Bill. It's me again..... We went to Jerilderie a couple of weeks
ago for the Kelly event. It was a great day. I bought the little
book.. Jerilderie Letter, and noticed that the newspaper editor at the
time was named " Gill"
I thought that's interesting, because the editor of our Peugeot Club
magazine is Jeff Gill, operating out of Warburton. These businesses
tend to run in family lineage, so I asked him yesterday if there was a
connection. Sure enough, there is. It was his great grand father. Jeff
is a Kelly student too. He went to Glenrowan last year for some of the
events. Bill, are there any wood pieces left ? If so, I'd like to get
one. Regards, Doug
Yes Doug I still have a few larger pieces,
then they get smaller till there gone. Bill
Lance Gardams 21 Feb 2006
Bill what a fantastic page of information this is- Great stuff by all
your dedicated people and for once not some jackass telling us what a
crim Ned was!!!! Billy boy, I think the person who apart from Ned was
treated so disgustingly is one I admire for her grit is his Dear Mother,
Regarding Stringybark Ck I feel the real tree location should be known
but its a catch 22 situation as I feel the modern Coppers would consider
it Glorification!!! That said it would be the subject of a lot of
souvenir hunters as well!! But to at least the authorities the
real location should be known. sincerely Lance.
Thanks Lance, No glorification really. It’s a story of our nations
history and it needs to be told fairly if at all. There is only
regenerated growth there since the 1930’s. If a bush fire went through
tomorrow we would have bare blackened dirt. It’s knowing you’re at the
right place that counts rather than what is currently there. Bill
Bilic 15 Feb 2006 Re Two Huts
Dear Bill, I recently read with a lot of interest about your target tree
fragments and generosity from your website! even though I found your
webby about 6 mths ago and have hung off every word and article (one
after the other). I must say you truly want to share Ned and his
ideology, not just with pieces of wood but the truth! I first
read about EK in Ian Jones' books and started developing an insatiable
appetite for the whole saga (Pre-Industrial history is my favorite).
Even though I believe Ian has done a some good for Ned, I see the
monopolizing, credit hungry Microsoft mentality in his writing and words
When I first came across your site I was blown
away with your perseverance for the truth, finding of the real
Stringybark, Native Ned and your Ned Kelly Centre design! The latter I
must say "what a work of art" and couldn’t agree more when Penleigh Boyd
said Ned was "a modern man who moved with the
I fully support your proposal and hope to see this goal achieved. BTW I
really enjoyed going cross-eyed too with poor Ned's death mask!
Robert. It is indeed encouraging feedback.
We all believe in Ned and need to do it for Ned. Penleigh Boyd and his
true blue family heritage will see Ned gets the building he deserves.
Ned was no sham, the building will be no sham. It will inspire all
and Ned and the boys will be proud. It will tell the whole story, the
truth and nothing else. But it may not come easy, just as in Ned's time.
Barrie and Sheila Spencer 21 Jan 2006 re Two Huts and Stringybark
Dear Bill, We have read your Ned Kelly Web site
with great interest and have been very surprised at your comments on Ian
Jones. We intend to follow the Ned Kelly Trail in a few weeks and it
seems clear that we would miss some important sites without your input.
We are currently reading Ian Jones’ “Ned Kelly- a short life”, and
Keith McMenomy’s ‘Ned Kelly- The Authentic Illustrated History” since
we were told that these were the best sources for information about
where to go and what to see. We have long been Kelly ‘fans’ and would
like to see as much as we can. Any help you could give us would be very
much appreciated. Best Regards, Barrie and Sheila Spencer
It is indeed sad there is so much politics at
play. The books are great and largely responsible for bringing the Kelly
story to this new level of popularity.
However, no one should have ultimate control over what you are allowed
to see at historically relevant places like Stringybark on public land.
Truth and history is for everyone. There are now two Ned Kelly Trail
websites, one with maps. Bill
Ken Wilson 15
Dear sir, I
have in my home theatre collection of DVD movies the movie Ned Kelly
played by heath ledger who I believe plays the part well. Each time I
watch the movie I am more convinced that Ned wasn’t really the villain
that he was made out to be. As a kid growing up in the early 1940/1950
era and whenever Ned Kellys name was mentioned he was always regarded as
an outlaw either by the media or of people of my grandparents age who
were around in the 1880 period and as a young boy growing up at the time
and being told that he was an outlaw did not take any further interest
until I became much older and now believe he wasn’t as bad as was made
I have just recently purchased a lap top computer and am learning more
about how to use it and to look up information on various items of
interest and that’s why I am replying to the fantastic information you
gathered as it is like going back in history just reading about it as
there must have hours and hours of pain staking work involved. Kindest
regards. Ken Wilson.
Thanks Ken, Your conclusions are mutual. I like to question history as
few others will. In Two huts, in a way I may put a few people off
side, however the truth must be told. For those who are anti Ned, it is
for them to come up with better arguments why Ned was so bad, it was the
system that was bad.
There is ever growing support for Ned’s cause and his place in our
Roberts, Friday 13 Jan 2006
Thank you so much for the website
of Iron Icon, this is the best website on the Kelly gang I have ever
seen. The information is in the wow category. The depths that you have
gone, to put together history in its truest form is commended. One
makes you wonder about the Two Huts, why was one burnt? and yes I
would like to see a memorial at the proper destination of the
Stringybark ck site. Ian Jones has written some fantastic books on the
Kelly subject, but there are a lot of people like me who are
interested to visit this particular place of Kelly history.
I have my family going all over the countryside on our own Kelly
tours, but would love to have the close-up maps around Stringybark, it
might save me some wrong turns. I will certainly put this website on
my favorites list and visit often.
Yours Sincerely Heather Roberts.
Thank you Heather. We do know that Walter
Lynch burnt down one of three huts at Stringybark Ck but this was 15
months before the killings there. Walter was well know to the area
and friend of the Kellys, but what sparked the falling out with his
prospecting mates - to burn down their new hut remains speculative.
In 1878 the two huts were reported as ruined and our ground
detection concludes one of the huts was reduced to charcoal. We can
tell the other was inhabited for a much longer period, -evident by
what was found there.
A majority of people who write to me believe the monument should be
at the correct place, where the police camped and lost their lives.
O'Keefe, Friday, 30 December 2005
I read with
amazement your research on the Three Creeks at Stringybark.
and research you have undertaken is mammoth and clearly fills many of
the gaps, more to the point (chasms) previously never known about this
part of the Kelly story. After taking school groups to some of these
sites eg Stringybark shootout site / Bullock Creek. It is clearly
apparent that your research is tremendously accurate and really does
answers so many questions we have waited decades for to be answered.
Regards Paul O'Keefe
Thank you Paul, The Kelly gang never realised the place they would
occupy in Australia's history. You can be proud to have Steve Hart as
you one of your ancestors. They fought for justice denied after Ned
drew a line in the sand. Kelly Gang Education is a very worth while
project, we all need to support that. Bill
Lisa, December 12, 2005
Bill, it is a wonderful thing you are doing. A fragment of the Target
Tree is something I will always treasure! I just want to say how very
kind of you it is to share this with us all. I will print out the
terrific information page on ironicon. The $5 fee is extremely
generous of you, after all, to people who are really interested in the
boys it is a priceless keepsake. Could you please send me your postal
address so I can post it to you, Best wishes to you and thank you.
Dear Lisa, to be able to share these wood
fragments is a pleasure. You are a compassionate lady who deserves to
have a piece of true Kelly history. My objective is always to do the
right thing for the ' boys', they are my hero's too. Bill
PS, I will send you a PDF to print out re the wood information sheet as
to copy and paste from the Net has too many pages.
Rowe, 4 Dec 2005
browsing and reading through your two Hut Site,
I only just read the piece -
" I AM SURE TOM LLOYD, WOULD HAVE KNOWN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A HUT
AND TENT", pleased to see and read that you had given due where it
was ' Due ', in the writing of JJ K. book, especially, to have the
truth pointed out is great, because I am sure a lot do not realise
that JJK 's book was written with a lot of care and work between him
and Tom Lloyd . . LOLA
Dear Lola, a typographic error, the
difference between a Tent and a Hut is too easy to pick. Naturally, I
believe the writer meant Hut because we now KNOW there was a
hut standing there, even Ned referred to it as the Shingle Hut. Bill
Elizabeth Buick 7 Nov 2005
Have just discovered your conversation page.
MY name is Elizabeth Brown and this weekend I am coming to Benalla with
two brothers to see if we can find out some information re our
Her name was Jane LLoyd before she married Matthew Brown . Her mother
Jane Quinn the sister of Ellen Quinn.
If you could point us in the right direction of who we may be able to
to at either Benalla or Greta or Glenrowan we would be so pleased. Only
just found out our fathers history and we have no knowledge of any
relatives. Yours Faithfully, Elizabeth Buick nee Brown
Dear Elizabeth, I have passed this email on to
family descendants, so you should hear from them . Gary Dean at Cobb&Co
Glenrowan is the man to see. He has all the
family trees that will be useful.
Hope this helps, Bill
24 October 2005
Subject: Ned Kelly death mask
Your questions about the Kelly death mask on your website may be spot
My great, great grandfather, Desiderio Cristofani owned a waxworks
in George St, Sydney in the from 1870s-around 1905.
Our family members described how Desiderio went to Melbourne to take
death mask of Ned, accompanied by Kreitmeyer, (Businesses were
but apparently Desiderio did work for Kreitmeyer on occasion). They
reported seeing the mask in Cristofani's waxworks. Perhaps this could
explain the discrepancy - if Cristofani took the mask and Kreitmeyer
took copies from it. Neither of the two men were recorded as present
at the hanging but modelers weren't normally present. They remained
in a back room, as did the doctor who performed the autopsy. The wax
modelers apparently severed the heads of their subjects, so it was a
pretty gruesome task.
I have been unable to find documentation to support Cristofani's death
mask, but I know there has been some doubt amongst academics that
Kreitmeyer took all of the masks that were in circulation.
In terms of death by hanging, the neck is usually engorged with blood
and does swell, as does the face. That could explain Ned's thick neck
but his face is perfect. That seems a little odd to me, (as a doctor
with an interest in forensic medicine).
May I ask what your interest is in the mask, and your background? It
seems amazing that I am trying to find out about the mask and have had
such little success so far. yet you have raised the same questions
about Kreitmeyer's mask's authenticity.
Hope this helps a little. Kind regards, Kathryn
My main interest is
truth in recorded history. In the case for Ned - who was always
painted as a badie, but after seeing the original death mask I
realised it was different to the one later circulated . My question
was, was the death mask slightly changed to fit a criminal profile for
the study of Phrenology? ( The reason the authorities cut his head off
). Your feedback is greatly appreciated by all and hope more
information comes to light in future due to you. With thanks, Bill
the story of the death mask
Tony Lugton 25
My name is Tony Lugton I have read your page re Ned Kelly.
A bloke called Cameron on
your page was my ggg grandfather Donald Cameron of Beveridge Victoria
who's Camerons Lane was named after. I wish I had more info for you, I
have tried to find the family bible with it contents but to no
They moved to Bright a few
years later. Sorry thats all I know. but they did know the Kelly's as
my grandfather had told me when I was young. Most of my mothers
families came from the Donnybrook, Beveridge area.
I know this does not help
much, but I thought you may least like a reply. Tony
Tony, For those who don't know, you refer to the
place where Ned was Born at Wallan East.
( ironicon/nativened) I hope
you continue to try find out more. It is great for you to inform us
there are real people who can identify with this history. Thank you,
Dave White, Sunday,
12 September 2004
I was having my usual
rummage through your terrific site again this evening.
I wanted to send this
message to your feedback to say how good I believe your
research to be. Not many
would go to such lengths to explain a story and we
who like to learn are truly
in your debt. You have set the bar high.
Keep it up, Dave White.
Warren Trick, Subject Kellyana.
Friday, August 27, 2004
Dear Bill, Congratulations and thanks for
such a well researched and thought provoking web site.
How I envy you going up
into that glorious high country to find the spot where Sergeant
Kennedy fell mortally wounded, a brave man of course, one part of the
unalterable tragedy that unfolded that day in the course of a fateful
few minutes. I often think of the "boys", Dan and especially Steve
Hart, their life course irrecoverably shaped, wrong place at the wrong
I've enjoyed reading your
story "the Bullets at Kelly's Creek" and the research that went into
defining the position of the Hut, wonderfully thoughtful research,
you're to be commended for your attention to detail, and what's
equally important to the rest of us Kelly readers, is your generosity
with your findings. Thank You!.
I remember in 1980 I took
the family down to the north east of Victoria, it was of course the
Glenrowan centenary, but we also went to Mansfield and as luck would
have it I spoke to a young Constable at Mansfield Police Station, who
was a descendant of one of the policemen involved at Stringybark Ck.
to my everlasting shame, I can't remember which one.
The remains of the police stable from which the police party left in
1878 were still evident, and he gave us directions to the old farm
house at Tolmie where Macintyre finally was able to tell someone of
the events of the previous day. Whether we found the exact spot of
the shootout , is open for conjecture, but it was a wonderful day in
I remember it raining
heavily on the 28th which put a dampener on the celebrations at
Glenrowan, but we were there!.
I'm in my sixties now
but right at the start I was in trouble in kindergarten for drawing a
picture of Ned on the front cover of my schoolbook, I don't know what
actually started my interest in the Kelly story, for that's what it
surely is, but I've carried that interest with me all through my life,
inflicting it on friends and family with varying degrees of success
and interest. I'm pretty sure my son is hooked and so it may flow on
to Grand children, my Library containing The best (Jones, McMenomy,
Max Brown etc.) to the worst, the sadly awful pieces of rubbish that
are kept as curiosities and whose authors are names I cannot readily
remember. As for the films... the story is yet to be told. They've
been uniformly awful.
My journey as a Kellyphile has taken a few different twists in my
life, starting out as I've said before, as a kid knowing nothing
really of EK except "the armour', I'd ruined good paint tins prized
by my long suffering Father, made replicas out of flattened corrugated
iron, that cut clean through to my collarbone when I fell off my
bike!, all this before I turned ten and was given a copy of Frank
Clune's "The Kelly Hunters". I suppose Mum And Dad knew when they
As an adult you realise what a magnificent snapshot of Australian
history the story is, the struggling Irish immigrant families, finding
themselves in much the same predicament as they thought they'd left
behind. Gold rushes, Eureka, the new Railway shrinking city and bush
(remember your Railways!).
And the characters!, good, bad, honest, loyal, pompous and corrupt (
"While the Kelly's are out, It's double pay and country girls" EK on
Ward). heroes and heroines, Ellen Kelly gets my vote every time !
there could be a book just on her., clever maneuvers, bad options
taken. As a fine piece of documented Australian social history the
Kelly story, starting with the "assisted" arrival of John Kelly, and
the Quinn family to Australia, it is unsurpassed in my opinion.
I'm starting to ramble, but I must tell you that when I visited
Melbourne earlier this month I bought one of your beautifully crafted
Kelly helmets from the Museum (Ned's of course for starters) , my
family was not surprised at all. Joe's unique helmet will be next.
Internet has made all this possible, I used to think I was the only
person with interest in the story of those turbulent few years when
those four young men, largely victims of circumstance and social
inequalities of the times were "out".
I have your website firmly entrenched
on my "favourites", and I anxiously look forward to your report on
Kennedy's site, How that mock-up picture of the finding of the
Sergeant's body is sharp in my mind.
You've been there, tangible history
you can reach out and touch! wonderful stuff! Regards Warren Trick
Thanks again for your site, it is on my Internet favourites. Warren
Thank you Warren,
There is a great little book about Ellen Kelly written by Dagmar
Balcarek available from Gary Dean's Glen Rowan Cobb & Co in
Hello from Alan
Wiggs, 5 August 2004
My Yr. 9 History class are studying Ned Kelly – just thought I’d
mention that we found you website information fascinating!
Particularly the detail re Kelly’s Bullets.Very interesting hands-on
history. Cheers! Alan Wiggs
(The Peninsula School, Mt. Eliza.)
20 July 2004 2:37 PM
My name is Lisa and I have
been extremely interested in Ned, Joe, Dan and Steve since childhood.
Recently I saw the brilliant replica helmets you made advertised on
your website. This past weekend we were in Kelly Country and I bought
the set of four from Mr Gary Dean at Glenrowan. I just wanted to write
and let you know how much I love them, they look exactly like the boys
real helmets, they are incredible. Thank you Bill. Yours
P.S Bill, I saw your letter
on Bail Up regarding the 20 copies of Ned Kelly's death mask that were
made and sold. They were sold in the late 1990's by a man named Adam
Frith who made them. My brother and I bought number 6,and yes there
were 20 of them. I didn't want to get one at first because I would
never be disrespectful toward Ned. But I thought, no at least with
this one I will never ever have it on display or ever sell it or
anything like that to make money from it. In all the years we have had
it I have only looked at it a very few times as it is very sad, and I
think of Ned very, very highly. We have it kept in a bookcase that has
doors on it, so it is never opened, and there is a photograph of Ned
next to it with flowers. When I saw your letter mentioning the 20
copies that were made, I just wanted to mention this to you, as it is
funny because I was writing to you about the wonderful replica helmets
you made. Thanks Bill.
Thank you for the kind words. I am pleased you like the model helmets.
It sure is sad what happened to poor Ned. The indignity displayed is
If the Authorities of the time had wanted to elevate Ned's stature
to that of the folk hero, they didn't do a bad job.
I will correct the
miss- information about Ned's mask,
shows how quickly things get distorted. regards Bill
Grant Kirby. Tuesday,
July 06, 2004
Mr Denheld, how ya goen,
Hope all is well mind body and soul.
My name is Grant Kirby and
as like (not sure of percentages) most Australian citizens have a
healthy respect and admiration for Ned, his family and friends.
I live and work on the Queensland canfields but come January I head to
Victoria to pick apricots & pears. This season leaves me in the
vicinity of our country steeped in historical value that has affected
me to ends I do not know. Finding your website, new information and
photos is truly an inspiration. Your ballistics reports and
thoroughness to every aspect of detail is truly encouraging. Without
sounding jealous, the work you have done (family field trips) to
uncover the truth about Stringybark creek is truly amicable. In
January this year whilst having visited all the known Kelly tourism
haunts, once again I found myself unsatisfied until I drove down a
dirt track and found the memorial at Stringybark creek. At the time I
was without the company of my lovely lady and son, the feelings as I
walked through this hallowed ground gave me a feeling of absolute
isolation. I have already made arrangements for this coming pear
season to spend two to three days walking around and most importantly
taking photos. Just wondering how long it has been since you have
visited the site? Yours Sincerely Grant Kirby
Thank you Grant, not everyday do I get accolades
like this. With the help of fellow researchers we are trying to find
the exact spot where the TWO huts stood at Kellys Ck. When you're down
south next let me know and I may be able to give you the latest if it
is not already on this website. Bill
Original Message Subject ' Backs to the
from Marian Matta.
Thursday 24 June 2004
Checking over your site again, I see you are still keen on the idea of
the police using the hut over the other side of the creek, prior to the
arrival of the Kellys and company. It just doesn't make sense that the
Kellys would approach the campsite AND HAVE THEIR BACKS TO THE HUT if
they didn't know if anyone was in there i.e. if it was still relatively
intact. As best it could only have been a ruin which enabled them to see
there was no-one there. Despite the fact that Kenneally had Tom Lloyd as
his source of information, I still think that Ned would have asked
McIntyre who was in the "tent", not "hut". That, after all, is what
McIntyre stated soon after the incident. You are to be congratulated
over your seeking out and displaying such a fabulous collection of old
photographs. So often, people think that everything has already been put
out in public and yet, as you demonstrate, there's still plenty of good,
relevant stuff to find. Best wishes Marian Matta
In the manuscript
of Thomas McIntyre, he states the Kelly gang appeared about 24 yards
" I was jammed in a corner having a log on
either hand and a fire at my back, both my revolver and shot gun were at
the tent about 24 yards distant on my right and about the same distance
from some of the attacking party" We know
the attacking party came from the south ( 24 yards up the creek).
McIntyre was looking down the creek ( with the tent 24 yards to his
right and EAST ).
Lonigan was on the otherside of the fired logs facing SOUTH. McIntyre
states that " if he (
Lonigan) Had lifted his head he must have seen the four men
approaching us from behind the rushes before they challenged us."-
The HUT/s would be to Lonigan's immediate left ( WEST) some 46 yards on
the otherside of the creek).
To suggest the gang had the ' hut' to their backs would mean they came
from the WEST into the police camp. They came from the south.
I like to believe Kenneally and Tom Lloyd deliberately chose HUT when
stating' who is in the hut' ( rather than tent) If it was HUT,- then Ned
would have had good reason to ask that question of McIntyre. Ned had
observed the scene for some time. Bill
From Marian Matta Tuesday, 29 June 2004 4:16 PM
The perils of writing emails very fast is that sometimes you don't
always say everything quite as well as you would like. I didn't mean
to imply that the hut was directly behind the Kellys as they
approached, rather that it was towards the rear. Having been on site
(thanks to you!) and seen the lay of the land, my distinct
impression was that, if there had been a substantial part of a hut
remaining (enough to conceal a person) Ned would not have approached
the way he did without checking the hut first. He didn't and
therefore I believe the hut was not substantial. He would not have
asked if anyone was in the hut - the situation would have been just
too dangerous. Both Tom Lloyd's remark to Kenneally (presuming it
was reported correctly) and McIntyre's later manuscript that you
quoted are from a much later time than 1878 so why not believe that
McIntyre was correct when, in his 1878 reports, he stated that Ned
asked who was in the tent? The tent was in plain view of Ned and he
could easily have covered anyone who came out of it. I'm always
happy to have a good argument about Kelly stuff - so often we just
go along with what other people have said before and occasionally
it's just plain wrong (as with the full moon references at Glenrowan
- see Sharon Hollingsworth's article and subsequent feedback on
What do other people think?
Best wishes, Marian
On how Marian has presented her case,
I have to agree, that Ned would have checked out the hut scene
well before making his move. Be aware the hut would have been very
obvious to all parties. In his book of 1929, The Inner History of
the Kelly Gang (page 52), J.J Kenneally mentions a hut at the
Stringybark Ck police camp. Until the fireplaces were found there (
Sept 2002) nobody cared much of ' the hut' . Every one assumed hut
instead of tent must have been a typo error? In my opening Intro
page 'Twohuts' I am not saying the police used the hut when camped
there, rather they could have, because we now know it was there. I
should also mention that on page 72 of the same book, in Ned's
Cameron letter and version of events says ' tent ' so we should
believe Ned and not Kenneally. We also know Tom Lloyd was co writer
of the book with Kenneally, mistake or not, it was printed Hut.
I believe we should always take the meaning of the printed word
literally and explore that. Thank you Marian, Bill
Any more comments?
Johnson 15 June 2004
Re the listing of Stringybark creek etc, I have no problem with it as
long as a few signs go up to indicate the site status. No point in
setting traps for the tourists. Also could you put a link to my website
on your site please with a note saying it is not finished, I may
as well do it now and smooth out any problems people have with it
thanks. Cheers Bruce Johnson
Note to readers. Bruce has been assembling
this exciting website for quite a while. The fact that it is not
finished does not matter at all. It is a wealth of information that will
only get better. Well done Bruce.
PS, re Kellys and S/bark Cks Heritage Listing, Nobody will have a
problem fossicking at the creeks. When the time comes, signs will go up
declaring the status of the grounds. With proper arrangements in place,
it is planned an archaeological dig can proceed in spring and involve
all who are interested.
What is important is that all artifacts found be capable of being
brought together for final display. Bill
Tuesday, 15 June, 2004
I have just discovered your website and wanted to thank you for
sharing what has obviously been an incredible amount of work and
research. I am really looking forward to the opening of the new Ned
Kelly Centre at Glenrowan and seeing many of the artifacts you and
others have painstakingly sought to preserve. Cheers Airlie Morris
Thank you for the complements Airlie. It
certainly is very interesting to be able to delve into our history and
still touch it. I much appreciate your feedback. Bill
Nicholas Sundblom Thursday, 3 June,
I stumbled across your site on the shootings at Stringybark Ck, and was
You present a very convincing argument regarding the actual location of
the shooting, all wrapped in a very accessible, informative website.
I was impressed with the layout, which allow easy reading, and there is
no clicking on endless links to find what you read 5 mins ago - you just
scroll up! If i could be critical, it would be that none of the
photos are enlargeable. This is a bit of a problem when trying to make
out what is actually in the photos, especially fine details. But this is
a minor gripe when compared to the quality of your research. Very
Thank you for your encouragement Nick, Please tell me which pictures require
enlargement and will either send you full size pics or make them
available on site. I need to keep them as
small as possible as there are already more than 100 images. Bill
PS, anyone with similar requests let me know.
Harbord Wednesday, April 28, 2004
gday bill, Just browsed recently over your two huts site.
I had heard you had with the NRE moved the Kelly Tree from its resting
I find this great on one hand that it can be kept for posterity indoors,
but a trifle sad that honest visitors to Stringybark have had this
treasure taken away from viewing without a future admittance fee.
You've done a lot of interesting research and would be well aware that
the Bullock creek area has remained as is for so long due to easy
access for vehicles being blocked, it is with regret I hear that this
road is now open for every hoon and vandal to desecrate the site without
even exiting their vehicle!!
I hope this doesn't turn out to be the case, these site are to be
protected for all and should remain accessible (in my opinion) to only
those who go to a great deal of trouble to reach them (which would put
off your average hoon).
example :(certain Kelly areas of Beechworth are as was 130 years
ago as access by the public is next to impossible)
regards Trevor Harbord
Yes it is sad that I had to instigate the tree removal since
visitors prior to this move decided to hack pieces off it.
It is a special place and will remain so. A meeting was called with
the DNRE and all parties were *invited to be at Stringybark Ck and the
Kelly Creek site early last year because the
DNRE were afraid both places may have got burnt-out as controlled
burns are on the agenda. They needed to know just what and where
these places of significance were. * list at bottom of page.
decided by all present that precautions be put in place to
ensure minimal damage to the sites. It was also decided that ' Friends
of Ned ' and enthusiasts be asked to conduct a working bee to reduce
the blackberry over and undergrowth to be slashed by hand and
poisoned. I trust we all will be volunteers too? It was mentioned that
should an unmanaged burn go through the sites, the re-growth would be
even more vigorous than before. May we ask for volunteers to put up
reply if you are prepared to spend time with your brush cutters).
Yes the track in had been blocked by fallen
trees, but this was not part of a management policy.
thousands of Kelly books sold in recent times, several
Kelly documentaries and international film releases, not to mention
half dozen Kelly websites, it is no wonder people are interested in
There is one place all Kelly readers and researchers want to be, that
is the actual place where it all happened, not some pretend place.
We are indeed fortunate these places are not locked up (as you
say they are) like at Beechworth. These places are part of our
National Heritage and it is time they were nominated. They are
accessible and can be shared by all, not just by a club of privileged
enthusiasts in the know.
As to being able to view the sad remains of the Kelly target tree
recovered, nobody seemed to care too much about it, a Kelly
gang museum up north would be the right place, where anyone who is
interested can see it.
Would you have rather have left it as it was, to be lost forever due
fire and left to souvenir hunters snipping bits off it ! Bill
following statement was received by all those listed.
May 2003 Bill
was asked by the Dept of Natural Resources and Environment to call a
meeting regarding the status of the Police camp and the fireplace
interested parties are invited to be present including the
Invited to attend were,
Hutchinson, Bob Bretherton, Gary Dean, Matt Shore, Brad Web,
Brendan Pearce, Dave White, Ben Collins, Marian & Peter Matta,
and from NRE,
David Hurley, Terry Kingston, David Wells,
and the historical officer for NRE,
Each was asked to nominate invitees and advise on a
To put in place a protection plan for both S/Bark and Kellys Ck.
NRE needed to know where the historically important sites were
for proper management and to avoid burning those by mistake.
Undergrowth to be cleaned up by work parties. No marking of
original sites to be done until after a proper archeological
study has been carried out. The sites are to be recommended to
Heritage Victoria as historical sites worthy of preservation
under the Heritage Act.
Note: Those that did not attend the meeting were,
Matt Shore, Brad Web, Brendan Pearce, Dave
White, Ben Collins.
|Tony Hyndman Email
email@example.com 23 March 2004
I am a budding Kelly historian, and was fascinated by your 2 Hut
story on the web. I am going to Bullock Ck in a weeks time to look over
the area. In Keith's book, the reporter who described the site said
their was a very steep incline to the west of the hut site, although you
say there was only a gentle rise from where the photo may have been
taken. Can you clarify this.
Also, can you confirm that the track to the site is the 1st track
Stringybark Creek Rd
if coming from Mansfield (approx 300 metres after). I assume the horse
paddock is to the left of the track & the old hut site to the right
(once the track ends).
The first track left ( 300 metres) is correct. The hut sat on a gentle
rise from the creek running north east, the other side of the creek is a
steep slope on the N. West. To the east the ground falls away following
the creek. That is why I figured the photo in Keith's book is back to
front. The track is now drivable since the DNRE took the Kelly target
tree log out. Follow the excavator tracks to the end. At the end,
the track turns right to the creek (20 metres), this is where the Kelly
Target tree was lying, in the creek. Here you will see remains of
the sawdust dump. Between the sawdust heaps and the track is a flat bit
of ground, in there is an old forked swamp gum
1956 , and below the same tree Jan 2004). Dave White left, Nicole Jones
and myself right )
This tree was said to be growing from where the Kelly hut had
Bill Stewart showed me that tree in 1985 indicating it could have been a
sapling while the Kellys were there.
we still have a problem in that the Kelly hut, - according to 1884 map
shows it was 100 yards
from the creek, but this hut /swampgum
location is almost on the creek. With the report of 1893 that only
fireplaces of the huts can now be seen indicated two
huts. One close to and the other 100 yards
from the creek?
Detected articles indicate the horse paddocks were down the creek on the
Hope this helps for
your trip to Bullock Creek. Bill
I'm happy to hear the Kelly Centre at Glenrowan will be overseen by
those with a heartfelt and clear understanding of the story of Ned
Kelly. I hope also that Stringybark and Kellys Creeks will be given
its due and looked after properly with the correct locations shown
clearly rather than what exists today.
The future of our country as our own rests very heavily on our regard
for our history and this beautiful and poignant part of our nations
development needs to be honoured and understood within its correct
context. I love the story of Ned Kelly. For many reasons, I feel he is
some sort of deity in the sense that he exists both as a historical
figure and a mythological one.
His story has the power to extract both the best and worst aspects of
our nature as humans and helps me to understand allot about human
nature on this glorious land.
That is beautifully said, thank you Lucie, Bill
Ian and Betty Quinn
Saturday, 31 January 2004
Subject; Dan Kelly,
Am wondering whats the latest on this ''jack ryan'' bloke buried at
Ipswich,Qld? Local councillor PauL Tully insisted it was Dan Kelly.
Wasn`t there supposed to be d.n.a. testing to sort that out? Also, what
can you tell me about the bloke in N.T. who claimed recently to have
Neds skull? It all sounded a bit too neat to me when I read it. Do you
think he`s fair dinkum? Thanks for any info, Regards, Ian.
Dear Ian, according to Gary Dean, James Ryan's exhumation has not been
arranged at this time, but it is hoped, providing the Queensland
Attorney General will give his approval, to carry this out at some time
in the future. Money and time at the moment have held up research, but
this is expected to resume in 2005.
is certainly not Dan Kelly, but there is very strong evidence to suggest
that he and Charles Devine Tyndal, who was exhumed in 2001, were both
hiding in the cellar of the kitchen of the Glenrowan Inn when it was
burnt down. These two men were sympathizers and are believed to be brothers. The
skull stolen in 1979 was not that of Ned Kelly. At the time of that
skulls exhumation, Ned Kelly's skull was actually adorning the desk of
one of the heads of the Sheriff's Department, on the first floor of the
building next to the Court House. Ned's skull is easily
as it has two round holes overlapping each other at the back of the
skull, through which his brain could removed in its entirety.
Baxter, if he does have the skull, should return it to the proper
authorities, as it is most likely that of Frances Knorr. Signed Gary
you have it from the man who knows, Bill
Greg and Bev Ahpee
firstname.lastname@example.org. Eltham/Australia Sunday 01/11/2004 10:11:10pm
We have been reading, with interest, the amazing amount of research you
have done into the true location of the historic Stringybark Creek site
and recently visited the area to see it for ourselves.
Many thanks for making the results of your research accessible on your
website and for responding to our email queries so promptly.
Greg and Bev
I enjoyed your site very much. It has been put together with such
dedication. It is informative and complex with details and data but it
is all written in a way that is so easy and enjoyable to follow. I, and
the reader really feels the excitement of each discovery. Thanks for
your care and cleverness in creating this site and in doing all of the
research and investigating that led to this intriguing documentation.
I will definitely be visiting this site again and look forward to
Thank you for your feedback. What you have said is what I always hoped
would come through, and you said it. It remains a complex story not
easily told. With lots of pictures a story becomes more understanding.
It was once said, one picture is worth a thousand words, but with all
discoveries, I reckon one good look is worth a thousand pictures. Bill
email@example.com Kew /Aus.
Monday 12/08/2003 6:36:13am
Thanks Bill for your most interesting and informative site. Sorry to
have missed catching up with you at the recent 125th commemorations. You
were right about the leeches at Stringybark!!
Thank you Ros, I do warn visitors to stay to the
paths and not cross the creek near the site at all. Imagine how the
Kelly's must have been covered with leeches lying amongst the spear
grasses on the creek bank while checking out the police camp for an hour
Your comment brings it all to life. Bill
firstname.lastname@example.org Sunbury Victoria Australia
Thursday 11/27/2003 11:26:29pm
Hi Bill, I thought you may be interested to hear that my new site we
talked about on Ned Kelly’s Last Stand is now up and running! It is a
one stop shop for information about the siege at Glenrowan in 1880. I
have included eyewitness accounts, police reports, archival documents
and contemporary newspaper accounts. There is much more to come in the
future. I hope you like it, feel free to comment once you have had a
look around, and keep coming back for more. Regards Dave White.
Great stuff, your new website-'Glenrowan1880.com', it is certainly the
action centre of the Kelly story (as Glenrowan was then). Your bold
approach should be appreciated by all. Congratulations for what appears
a huge task well executed. (pardon the pun) Also, well done to Sharon in
the assistance she has given to the polish of your new site. Bill.
email@example.com Tallarook, Victoria
Thursday 11/13/2003 9:02:33pm
Hi Bill, Congratulations on this most informative website. It is really
gratifying to see a historian who walks the ground and gets his hands
dirty. Your devotion to the subject is obvious. It was fantastic meeting
you at the 125th Anniversary of the Stringybark tragedy and I only wish
we had more time to pick your brain on the subject for a little longer.
Please keep up the good work. Kind regards, Tim Whitford
I have read your Two Huts website a number of times also and find it
fascinating. I and the other colonial re enactors at Stringybark Creek
on the anniversary of the police shootings were thrilled that you
stumbled across our group and showed us the fireplaces and exact
location of the shootings. We had been looking for these sites during
the day and couldn't agree amongst ourselves, due to the heavy growth
changing the landscape somewhat. Your tour was the highlight of the day.
Thanks for providing us with so much interesting information. What is
the situation re the exact location of the Bullock Creek campsite?
Dear Judy, In 'Two Huts' The Kelly hut on
Bullock Ck (story 9), not knowing where a possible second hut had stood
becomes a dilemma. With the help of Dave White, Bruce Johnson, Gary
Dean, Sheila Hutchinson, Bob Bretherton and other historians, the exact
site of the Kelly camp has been well known. The beacon to this site is
the sawdust heap of the sawmill 1930's and a reference as reported in
the Mansfield Guardian 1893 clearly mentions two huts , (now, the two
huts name is appropriate for both S/bark and Kellys Creeks). Anyone who
would like to go to Kellys Ck and identify the site can contact me for a
map of how to get there, a 1.5 Km walk. Thank you for your feedback and
interest Judy, Bill
firstname.lastname@example.org Victoria Australia
Wednesday 11/12/2003 10:04:17pm
great to see that you have somewhere for those of us who enjoy your
stories to leave our comments.
From the first day I read your bullets story, to the current batch, I
have enjoyed learning what you have found. That is what it is all about
for me, learning. Your research is second to none, no stone is left
Having been fortunate enough to join you in places such as Stringybark
Creek and Bullocks Creek, I count myself very fortunate indeed.
For those who are not so fortunate, this site offers every detail they
I look forward to seeing what you come up with next Bill.
Keep at it, regards Dave White.
email@example.com United States of America
Wednesday 11/12/2003 2:34:33pm
Hi Bill, I have enjoyed visiting your two huts site again and again, and
each time I pick up on something new. I really enjoy the graphics and
illustrations a lot. You certainly have presented your findings in a
lively and masterful way. Looking forward to more in the future! Cheers,
firstname.lastname@example.org Melbourne Friday 11/07/2003 10:09:23pm
I found your
information on the two huts story very interesting and look forward to
your future updates....Keep up the good work Bill!
Thanks Leith for your encouraging comments. Come
back soon because I am always updating the website.
Welcome to the Two Huts Feedback page.
All comments are appreciated and will be responded to.
background image is the remains of the Kelly Hut at Kellys Creek
photographed by Ewen Tolmie work party prior to 1883. A couple of chopped
trees in the background show where bullet lead was chopped out by the
All Copy Right reserved.